Ruth - not a stupid question: If you are looking to buy a banneton, I recommend always getting larger ones. Because of their shape, they can accommodate large or small loaves, where smaller ones cannot. Look for ones that are 10 inches in diameter.
It will work, but it will bump up the sides of the pot and be misshapen. The one way to work around it is to shape it more square than long, in which case it might fit. I'll have a post eventually on how to bake long loaves without needing a Challenger Bread Pan (which is what I use, and love, but they are $$$)
KW - I'll answer these sorts of questions in more detail eventually, but a) the "pre-shape" step is always there to even out the texture of the crumb before the final shape. And b) dust as liberally as you need to, if you loaf is sticking it means you aren't dusting the banneton enough for the dough you are working with. You can always brush off the excess either before or after baking. (And you use flour even with a liner.) I use rye flour, because I think it is a little less prone to absorbing moisture as quickly as white, but it's not as gritty as rice.
it's okay! I try to keep the recipe as succinct as possible, which means the post is going to do much of the heavy lifting. (If the headnote of a recipe has substitutions or alternatives, I'm likely to explain it in detail above.)
I start my weekly loaf in a cold oven, so I'm looking forward to trying this one this weekend. Maybe that's why you always have such a gorgeous dark crust?
Dessa - I didn't invent that cold oven start method, but I was the one who promoted it at ATK for years. It still works very well, but I've come back around to preferring the hot method, since I think it does give better oven spring. As for color, that's easy to achieve either way—just take the loaf out of the pot and return it to the oven rack and let it go until it's as dark as you want (doing so keeps the bottom from burning). I usually do 20 covered/15-20 uncovered/5-10 on the rack.
"12 hrs @75 degrees" for bulk fermentation. Can you speak to adjustments for higher (and lower temps). I assume hotter means shorter (& shorter window?) but how much shorter? Would additional hydration work to extend the fermentation under hot conditions? I live in the desert -- commonly 90 degrees -- and always have challenges both with starter & breads
I'm sure Andrew would have a more educated answer, but I also live in the hot hot desert and have some experience with similar conditions. I have used the previous version of this recipe numerous times with no problems. I have found on particularly warm days that I might need to shorten bulk fermentation to more like 10 hours but 12 has also worked fine for me. Sometimes I do have to add a tiny bit of extra water to my starter to get to the right consistency but it is never considerably more.
It is definitely dry here. Today it's 5% humidity. Not terribly high in elevation, but I think the extra low humidity can just dry things out even when they are covered most of the time. Its one of those things that just came intuitively as I was growing my starter. Sometimes it just didn't have the consistency that it seemed it should have based on your descriptions. I think it just lost a bit of water when I opened to feed and such and that loss was just enough that every few days it needed a little extra water. Hasn't affected the bread though. Always great bread! Can't wait to try the modifications you have included here.
Jack: the headnote gives instructions for hotter and cooler temps, you'll need to adjust the amount of levain so that it still takes 12h or so. If you are at 90, try 1% and see how it goes. Generally speaking more water = faster fermentation, not slower, but you can't reduce the hydration too much before it changes the result significantly. (You might try going down slightly if it's both hot and humid where you are, maybe to 72%) Good luck!
I am making this today. I have the dough in stainless bowl like yours. The surface of mine has darkened a little (I have a bowl covered by cotton kitchen towel). How do you get yours not to darken?
Thank you for responding! I appreciate it. It definitely developed some skin. It wasn't as bubbly as yours but it made a nice bread. I baked it today after 12 hr retard. Am yet to cut through to see the crumb structure. Many thanks. Your articles are wonderfully written.
I am new to wordloaf, and have enjoyed your posts immensely. I found this technique from Martin Phillip’s blog post on the King Arthur website and had a batch of dough proofing in the fridge as I read your article. This was my 3rd try, 75% bread flour, 15% spelt and 10% rye, 75% hydration and it baked up beautifully using a Lodge combo cooker. . It is very liberating in terms of timing. I highly recommend trying this recipe and then playing with the flour %. I appreciated the additional info in your article regarding adjusting the recipe to account for temperature variations.
Well I don't know what I'm doing wrong but my boule came out quite flat. Either my starter wasn't lively enough--but I fed it the day before--or something went wrong in the bulk fermentation stage. I even used a bread proofer--but took it out early because it had more than doubled. I'm really frustrated. No matter what recipe I follow, I get very little oven spring. I've had a few times where it kind of worked though I never get a loaf that looks like the ones pictured. Actually, my current boule looks kind of like the 50% whole wheat one, but I only used 20% per the recipe. Does it matter that I used bread flour?
Jennifer - if it looks like the 50% whole wheat one, that doesn't sound "quite flat" to me. Not tall, but not flat either. I'm not sure what the explanation is here, could be that your starter isn't robust (meaning it was underproofed) or that you overproofed it. What temp did you have the bread proofer set at? This recipe doesn't really need one, unless it was set for 75F and your kitchen is colder than that.
I guess "flat" was a bit of an exaggeration. I gave it to some friends and they said it was good, so I'll take their word. I probably didn't need to use the proofer since the house is around 75F (more or less) but I though it couldn't hurt--and set it at 75F. I did build the starter the day before but used it straight from the fridge. The problem I've had since starting my sourdough baking journey is that all my timing is much faster than most recipes--including a starter that doubles in as little as three hours. It's hot and humid in the summer where I am and I keep the temp at 78/80F. Next time, I'll use "fresh" starter and keep a closer eye on the bulk fermentation. I think the issue is somewhere in there. Another thing is that my oven doesn't get much hotter than 475F.
If your starter doubles in less than three hours, that's a good thing! It means it's very robust. That would suggest that your loaf over proofed during the bulk. Maybe try one that you start early in the day so you can keep an eye on it at the 8/10/12h marks, sounds like it might be moving faster than it should. Or try using less levain, maybe 20g instead of 30 (4%). I doubt you'll see much benefit from fresh vs. in-the-fridge-a-few-days starter.
What vessel should I use for the second proof if I do not have a banneton or basket? Will a metal mixing bowl work? Should I cover with a towel instead of plastic in that case for more ventilation?
Heather - I'll go into this soon, but if you don't have a banneton, try a towel-lined colander. A bowl will not be breathable enough and the dough is likely to stick.
I swear every time I think I got my sourdough recipe down and perfect it, I discover a new method that’s better than all the other methods. It happened with autolyse, wheat berry bread, coil folding, and many more. As I said in the Focaccia recipe, this method is like respectus panis and i’ve been considering adapting to that method but in the end, I decided to stick to my usual method of 20% levain. Now that someone that’s more qualified than a random french guy on boulangerienet.fr has posted this with an actual reason to do it, I’m changing my recipe!
Jax - I do the same thing, honestly. There is always another undiscovered technique right around the corner. I'm glad you find this one so easy & good!
also: thanks for turning me onto the "respectus panis" approach, which I'd somehow missed. It sounds like something out of Ancient Rome, though it seems to be only a few years old. The books are $$$, but I'm tempted to get them anyway.
yea panis sounds like an ancient roman word and same with respectus and how words change over time or something. I actually haven’t got the books (yet), and I’ve heard about the techniques from the french side of the internet where you’d find obscure breads that are only made in this one french village and the only source is boulangerienet.fr. Even if you were aware or not, i’m adapting this method to my recipe.
Along the lines of Jack’s inquiry, would you consider breaking down the approach to bulk fermentation in a post down the road? This is the step I find the the most challenging. For my first loaves during the Quarantiny days (aka with my then very young starter), I had no issues with 12 hours of bulk fermentation. This was also spring in New York City - mild temps, low humidity. As we got into summer temps and high humidity and my starter matured, I found 12 hours was far too long - my dough was way over proofed, yielding a “puffy” and very closed crumb. In the heat of summer in August, I finally cut the bulk proof time to about 4.5 hours and my loaf was perfect. Looking at other sources online (Bryan Ford’s blog, the Perfect Loaf blog by Maurizio Leo), I found that 4 hours a pretty average bulk ferment time for their recipes, though their formulas also call for 20-30% levain on average. I would love to understand the logic behind the relationship of levain percentage and the impact of temperatures/humidity when approaching bulk fermentation timing so I’m better equipped to know when and how to adjust it.
Definitely! One post I want to write soon is a general overview of the various stages of bread making, from mixing to baking, with some of the information you are seeking, and then to follow up with individual posts taking a deeper dive into each stage.
I just made this yesterday, & baked it this morning --I used 50% WW and baked it a few extra minutes for a strong dark crust, which this household likes. It has a good crumb & great taste! And good shape, something I have been struggling with. One question: is there any reason not to double this recipe? I usually make 2 loaves (using 1000g of flour) so I am comfortable with that amount of dough. I like to be able to give away a loaf and still have plenty around.
By far one of the best if not the best-tasting loaf I’ve made. Unfortunately not very attractive (turned out a little flat and weirdly lumpy on top) but still delicious which is what counts.
I am baking this loaf today! There is one detail I don’t see in you recipe, and about which I have read conflicting opinions. Should I bake the loaf immediately after removing from the refrigerator, or should I let it get to room temperature first, or somewhere in between those? Thank you.
Nancy - sorry for the delay. 20m shouldn't make much difference either way, but actually you were meant to bake it directly from the fridge. Glad you liked it!
Thanks so much for all your post, super interesting and great recipes!! Been following you since the quarantinystarter days!....I was finally able to get a proofing basket instead of S/S bow, my question is that if I need to put the whole thing in a plastic bag inside refrigerator for final proofing or just cover the top of banetonn with a shower cap? Thanks again!
Ruth - not a stupid question: If you are looking to buy a banneton, I recommend always getting larger ones. Because of their shape, they can accommodate large or small loaves, where smaller ones cannot. Look for ones that are 10 inches in diameter.
It will work, but it will bump up the sides of the pot and be misshapen. The one way to work around it is to shape it more square than long, in which case it might fit. I'll have a post eventually on how to bake long loaves without needing a Challenger Bread Pan (which is what I use, and love, but they are $$$)
Can I substitute rye flour for some of the Whole Wheat?
Annie - please read the post, you'll find the answer there!
After Step 6 (end of bulk ferment) are you looking only to shape the loaf, or also to remove some of the larger bubbles?
Related question: do you line the banneton, or just flour it liberally? My first attempt with a banneton got pretty tacky....
Thanks!
KW - I'll answer these sorts of questions in more detail eventually, but a) the "pre-shape" step is always there to even out the texture of the crumb before the final shape. And b) dust as liberally as you need to, if you loaf is sticking it means you aren't dusting the banneton enough for the dough you are working with. You can always brush off the excess either before or after baking. (And you use flour even with a liner.) I use rye flour, because I think it is a little less prone to absorbing moisture as quickly as white, but it's not as gritty as rice.
Thx....must admit I went straight to the recipe. My bad!
it's okay! I try to keep the recipe as succinct as possible, which means the post is going to do much of the heavy lifting. (If the headnote of a recipe has substitutions or alternatives, I'm likely to explain it in detail above.)
I start my weekly loaf in a cold oven, so I'm looking forward to trying this one this weekend. Maybe that's why you always have such a gorgeous dark crust?
Dessa - I didn't invent that cold oven start method, but I was the one who promoted it at ATK for years. It still works very well, but I've come back around to preferring the hot method, since I think it does give better oven spring. As for color, that's easy to achieve either way—just take the loaf out of the pot and return it to the oven rack and let it go until it's as dark as you want (doing so keeps the bottom from burning). I usually do 20 covered/15-20 uncovered/5-10 on the rack.
"12 hrs @75 degrees" for bulk fermentation. Can you speak to adjustments for higher (and lower temps). I assume hotter means shorter (& shorter window?) but how much shorter? Would additional hydration work to extend the fermentation under hot conditions? I live in the desert -- commonly 90 degrees -- and always have challenges both with starter & breads
I'm sure Andrew would have a more educated answer, but I also live in the hot hot desert and have some experience with similar conditions. I have used the previous version of this recipe numerous times with no problems. I have found on particularly warm days that I might need to shorten bulk fermentation to more like 10 hours but 12 has also worked fine for me. Sometimes I do have to add a tiny bit of extra water to my starter to get to the right consistency but it is never considerably more.
Rachel - good answer! I assume you are adding water because the air is dry where you are (high elevation?)
It is definitely dry here. Today it's 5% humidity. Not terribly high in elevation, but I think the extra low humidity can just dry things out even when they are covered most of the time. Its one of those things that just came intuitively as I was growing my starter. Sometimes it just didn't have the consistency that it seemed it should have based on your descriptions. I think it just lost a bit of water when I opened to feed and such and that loss was just enough that every few days it needed a little extra water. Hasn't affected the bread though. Always great bread! Can't wait to try the modifications you have included here.
Jack: the headnote gives instructions for hotter and cooler temps, you'll need to adjust the amount of levain so that it still takes 12h or so. If you are at 90, try 1% and see how it goes. Generally speaking more water = faster fermentation, not slower, but you can't reduce the hydration too much before it changes the result significantly. (You might try going down slightly if it's both hot and humid where you are, maybe to 72%) Good luck!
I am making this today. I have the dough in stainless bowl like yours. The surface of mine has darkened a little (I have a bowl covered by cotton kitchen towel). How do you get yours not to darken?
svjetlana - you'll want to cover your bowl more tightly than with a towel. I use reusable clear plastic shower caps, but plastic wrap will do.
Thank you for responding! I appreciate it. It definitely developed some skin. It wasn't as bubbly as yours but it made a nice bread. I baked it today after 12 hr retard. Am yet to cut through to see the crumb structure. Many thanks. Your articles are wonderfully written.
I am new to wordloaf, and have enjoyed your posts immensely. I found this technique from Martin Phillip’s blog post on the King Arthur website and had a batch of dough proofing in the fridge as I read your article. This was my 3rd try, 75% bread flour, 15% spelt and 10% rye, 75% hydration and it baked up beautifully using a Lodge combo cooker. . It is very liberating in terms of timing. I highly recommend trying this recipe and then playing with the flour %. I appreciated the additional info in your article regarding adjusting the recipe to account for temperature variations.
Well I don't know what I'm doing wrong but my boule came out quite flat. Either my starter wasn't lively enough--but I fed it the day before--or something went wrong in the bulk fermentation stage. I even used a bread proofer--but took it out early because it had more than doubled. I'm really frustrated. No matter what recipe I follow, I get very little oven spring. I've had a few times where it kind of worked though I never get a loaf that looks like the ones pictured. Actually, my current boule looks kind of like the 50% whole wheat one, but I only used 20% per the recipe. Does it matter that I used bread flour?
Jennifer - if it looks like the 50% whole wheat one, that doesn't sound "quite flat" to me. Not tall, but not flat either. I'm not sure what the explanation is here, could be that your starter isn't robust (meaning it was underproofed) or that you overproofed it. What temp did you have the bread proofer set at? This recipe doesn't really need one, unless it was set for 75F and your kitchen is colder than that.
I guess "flat" was a bit of an exaggeration. I gave it to some friends and they said it was good, so I'll take their word. I probably didn't need to use the proofer since the house is around 75F (more or less) but I though it couldn't hurt--and set it at 75F. I did build the starter the day before but used it straight from the fridge. The problem I've had since starting my sourdough baking journey is that all my timing is much faster than most recipes--including a starter that doubles in as little as three hours. It's hot and humid in the summer where I am and I keep the temp at 78/80F. Next time, I'll use "fresh" starter and keep a closer eye on the bulk fermentation. I think the issue is somewhere in there. Another thing is that my oven doesn't get much hotter than 475F.
If your starter doubles in less than three hours, that's a good thing! It means it's very robust. That would suggest that your loaf over proofed during the bulk. Maybe try one that you start early in the day so you can keep an eye on it at the 8/10/12h marks, sounds like it might be moving faster than it should. Or try using less levain, maybe 20g instead of 30 (4%). I doubt you'll see much benefit from fresh vs. in-the-fridge-a-few-days starter.
I will try these approaches for the next boule (or loaf)!
I sympathize with your frustration, I hope we can get you to the point where your loaves rise the way you hope!
What vessel should I use for the second proof if I do not have a banneton or basket? Will a metal mixing bowl work? Should I cover with a towel instead of plastic in that case for more ventilation?
Heather - I'll go into this soon, but if you don't have a banneton, try a towel-lined colander. A bowl will not be breathable enough and the dough is likely to stick.
I swear every time I think I got my sourdough recipe down and perfect it, I discover a new method that’s better than all the other methods. It happened with autolyse, wheat berry bread, coil folding, and many more. As I said in the Focaccia recipe, this method is like respectus panis and i’ve been considering adapting to that method but in the end, I decided to stick to my usual method of 20% levain. Now that someone that’s more qualified than a random french guy on boulangerienet.fr has posted this with an actual reason to do it, I’m changing my recipe!
Jax - I do the same thing, honestly. There is always another undiscovered technique right around the corner. I'm glad you find this one so easy & good!
also: thanks for turning me onto the "respectus panis" approach, which I'd somehow missed. It sounds like something out of Ancient Rome, though it seems to be only a few years old. The books are $$$, but I'm tempted to get them anyway.
yea panis sounds like an ancient roman word and same with respectus and how words change over time or something. I actually haven’t got the books (yet), and I’ve heard about the techniques from the french side of the internet where you’d find obscure breads that are only made in this one french village and the only source is boulangerienet.fr. Even if you were aware or not, i’m adapting this method to my recipe.
Along the lines of Jack’s inquiry, would you consider breaking down the approach to bulk fermentation in a post down the road? This is the step I find the the most challenging. For my first loaves during the Quarantiny days (aka with my then very young starter), I had no issues with 12 hours of bulk fermentation. This was also spring in New York City - mild temps, low humidity. As we got into summer temps and high humidity and my starter matured, I found 12 hours was far too long - my dough was way over proofed, yielding a “puffy” and very closed crumb. In the heat of summer in August, I finally cut the bulk proof time to about 4.5 hours and my loaf was perfect. Looking at other sources online (Bryan Ford’s blog, the Perfect Loaf blog by Maurizio Leo), I found that 4 hours a pretty average bulk ferment time for their recipes, though their formulas also call for 20-30% levain on average. I would love to understand the logic behind the relationship of levain percentage and the impact of temperatures/humidity when approaching bulk fermentation timing so I’m better equipped to know when and how to adjust it.
Definitely! One post I want to write soon is a general overview of the various stages of bread making, from mixing to baking, with some of the information you are seeking, and then to follow up with individual posts taking a deeper dive into each stage.
Will be looking forward to it! Thanks!
I just made this yesterday, & baked it this morning --I used 50% WW and baked it a few extra minutes for a strong dark crust, which this household likes. It has a good crumb & great taste! And good shape, something I have been struggling with. One question: is there any reason not to double this recipe? I usually make 2 loaves (using 1000g of flour) so I am comfortable with that amount of dough. I like to be able to give away a loaf and still have plenty around.
Peggy - No reason at all not to! I almost always do it at a double scale myself. Glad you liked!
By far one of the best if not the best-tasting loaf I’ve made. Unfortunately not very attractive (turned out a little flat and weirdly lumpy on top) but still delicious which is what counts.
I am baking this loaf today! There is one detail I don’t see in you recipe, and about which I have read conflicting opinions. Should I bake the loaf immediately after removing from the refrigerator, or should I let it get to room temperature first, or somewhere in between those? Thank you.
I took it out about 20 minutes before putting it into the oven. Baked it in cast iron pan with top. It came out perfect! A wonderful recipe!
Nancy - sorry for the delay. 20m shouldn't make much difference either way, but actually you were meant to bake it directly from the fridge. Glad you liked it!
Thank you, and thanks for the excellent information in your posts.
Thanks so much for all your post, super interesting and great recipes!! Been following you since the quarantinystarter days!....I was finally able to get a proofing basket instead of S/S bow, my question is that if I need to put the whole thing in a plastic bag inside refrigerator for final proofing or just cover the top of banetonn with a shower cap? Thanks again!