What a great article. I dived into the sourdough world when I discovered I was allergic to wheat. A long ferment with liquid starter has worked wonderfully to break down whatever I'm sensitive to. Tests say I'm allergic to the bran, germ and the gluten components. Do you think a stiff starter would be more or less effective at the breakdown of the wheat flour?
This is great info. I think I will do a side by side compare once I get some stiff starter made. Heading to the kitchen to do it now! One question, regarding discard....I make a number of discard recipes. What impact would the stiffer discard have on those uses? Flavor or texture or anything? Like, the sourdough pizza dough on the KAB site is a go to for me. Do I keep the stiff and the liquid discards separated or can I combine them?
The table showing stiff starter maintenance at 25% prefermented flour is actually the table for converting stiff to liquid. Here's what I get 25% prefermented:
100g. 200g. 300g. 400g. 500g
F. 43g. 86g. 129g. 172g. 215g
W. 35g. 70g. 105g. 140g. 175g
S. 22g. 44g. 66g. 88g. 110g
Is this right?
Otherwise, very very helpful information. As per usual
And another question: If you choose to use stiff starter rather than liquid starter (or vice-versa) how does that affect the weight of starter required?
I've been making semi-stiff starter & levains automatically since I switched from King Arthur's bread flour to Cairnspringsmills Expresso flour. 🤷🏼 Plus adding freshly milled flour to the mix will make Sir Bobby Farts-Alot dome!! 🤣 It's true that he stays fresh longer in the fridge when fed on the stiff side!
Hi Andrew! I made a spreadsheet for checking the calculations in your tables. My values differ by a few grams here and there, except for Table 2 (converting 75% starter to 100%). The amount of starter there seems high — 18g of starter in a 100g total mixture would give closer to 20% PFF, right?
Let me know if you're interested in having the spreadsheet — I'd be happy to send it on by email. I made it generalizable so you can just input your initial starter hydration, your final desired starter hydration, your desired % PFF, and the amount of starter you want to make and it'll spit out rounded the amounts of flour, water, and starter rounded to the nearest gram. It also has calcs checking for each of the tables in this post.
(I hope this doesn't come across as pedantic — I was just passing time while running a column in lab this afternoon)
How much longer do you think I can go without refreshing if I switched to a stiff starter? Right now I'm trying to keep my liquid starter "healthy" by doing so every 7-10 days.
You wrote, "many liquid levains are maintained at 125% hydration, which is 20% higher in hydration than those held at 100%". Don't you mean "25% higher"?
You wrote that a benefit of liquid starters is "Liquid starters are loose enough to be quickly and easily stirred mid-fermentation, in order to oxygenate them for a boost of activity." I use my food processor to mix my 50% hydration stiff starter and I *think* that provides ample oxygenation.
You wrote that the math for the tables is annoying. I think that if you used round numbers of flour for each column (e.g., 100 g, 200 g, 300 g, etc.) it would be less annoying.
Baking in a NYC hot and humid kitchen in the summer, I intuitively kept a stiffer starter. Your info is so enlightening. Began a real stiff starter a week ago, baking tomorrow. Will report. BTW made your burger/dog buns from your method in Edible Boston. Fantastic buns and so easy. Many thanks.
Perhaps I am missing something here but it seems to me that we are talking about a minuscule amount of flour/water/etc. I recently made a sourdough with 800 gr water, 900 gr whole white flour, 100 gr whole wheat flour, 20 gr salt, and 50 gr starter. How much difference in grams in this overall recipe is there going to be between a 75% starter and a 125% starter?
Fascinating. Thanks for this thorough explanation.
What a great article. I dived into the sourdough world when I discovered I was allergic to wheat. A long ferment with liquid starter has worked wonderfully to break down whatever I'm sensitive to. Tests say I'm allergic to the bran, germ and the gluten components. Do you think a stiff starter would be more or less effective at the breakdown of the wheat flour?
Are the last two tables meant to be the same? Personally I use the 'fudge it' method when converting from liquid to stiff.
This is great info. I think I will do a side by side compare once I get some stiff starter made. Heading to the kitchen to do it now! One question, regarding discard....I make a number of discard recipes. What impact would the stiffer discard have on those uses? Flavor or texture or anything? Like, the sourdough pizza dough on the KAB site is a go to for me. Do I keep the stiff and the liquid discards separated or can I combine them?
Interesting information. I noticed the very last cheat sheet, “And here’s one containing 25% prefermented flour...” is labeled 10% prefermented flour.
Thanks for this. I found it to be your most helpful post yet! I'd also like to see your take on converting yeasted formulae to sourdough.
The table showing stiff starter maintenance at 25% prefermented flour is actually the table for converting stiff to liquid. Here's what I get 25% prefermented:
100g. 200g. 300g. 400g. 500g
F. 43g. 86g. 129g. 172g. 215g
W. 35g. 70g. 105g. 140g. 175g
S. 22g. 44g. 66g. 88g. 110g
Is this right?
Otherwise, very very helpful information. As per usual
And another question: If you choose to use stiff starter rather than liquid starter (or vice-versa) how does that affect the weight of starter required?
Excellent post Andrew!
I've been making semi-stiff starter & levains automatically since I switched from King Arthur's bread flour to Cairnspringsmills Expresso flour. 🤷🏼 Plus adding freshly milled flour to the mix will make Sir Bobby Farts-Alot dome!! 🤣 It's true that he stays fresh longer in the fridge when fed on the stiff side!
Hi Andrew! I made a spreadsheet for checking the calculations in your tables. My values differ by a few grams here and there, except for Table 2 (converting 75% starter to 100%). The amount of starter there seems high — 18g of starter in a 100g total mixture would give closer to 20% PFF, right?
Let me know if you're interested in having the spreadsheet — I'd be happy to send it on by email. I made it generalizable so you can just input your initial starter hydration, your final desired starter hydration, your desired % PFF, and the amount of starter you want to make and it'll spit out rounded the amounts of flour, water, and starter rounded to the nearest gram. It also has calcs checking for each of the tables in this post.
(I hope this doesn't come across as pedantic — I was just passing time while running a column in lab this afternoon)
How much longer do you think I can go without refreshing if I switched to a stiff starter? Right now I'm trying to keep my liquid starter "healthy" by doing so every 7-10 days.
You wrote, "many liquid levains are maintained at 125% hydration, which is 20% higher in hydration than those held at 100%". Don't you mean "25% higher"?
You wrote that a benefit of liquid starters is "Liquid starters are loose enough to be quickly and easily stirred mid-fermentation, in order to oxygenate them for a boost of activity." I use my food processor to mix my 50% hydration stiff starter and I *think* that provides ample oxygenation.
You wrote that the math for the tables is annoying. I think that if you used round numbers of flour for each column (e.g., 100 g, 200 g, 300 g, etc.) it would be less annoying.
This was very helpful, thank you.
Baking in a NYC hot and humid kitchen in the summer, I intuitively kept a stiffer starter. Your info is so enlightening. Began a real stiff starter a week ago, baking tomorrow. Will report. BTW made your burger/dog buns from your method in Edible Boston. Fantastic buns and so easy. Many thanks.
Perhaps I am missing something here but it seems to me that we are talking about a minuscule amount of flour/water/etc. I recently made a sourdough with 800 gr water, 900 gr whole white flour, 100 gr whole wheat flour, 20 gr salt, and 50 gr starter. How much difference in grams in this overall recipe is there going to be between a 75% starter and a 125% starter?