"You want to use white high-protein all-purpose or bread flour for the liquid-levain builds, because whole-grain or less-refined flours will encourage acid production (ditto for the sweet starter build). If you are working toward a white flour final dough, use the same flour as the final dough for all of your builds. (If your final dough contains high-extraction or whole-wheat flour, save it for the final dough and use white flour in all of the starter builds.)"
May I ask? My initial thought when reading the examples was to use a 14.2% Lancelot then I read Ian’s feedback, I wonder now? do I go standard malted bread 12.7%? What would you recommend?
I’m very interested in this field of investigation. I’ve personally favored a low inoculation cool, yeast forward starter but could never reconcile my experience with the information available. This article rang lots of bells for me. Thank you both for the generous contribution of your time🙏🏻
I'd recommend King Arthur AP flour or an equivalent. That's basically what Ian refers to, and it's what I've used myself. (It is my go-to white "bread" flour.)
When I say "high-protein all-purpose or bread flour" I mean high protein AP flour or "normal" bread flour, with a preference for the former. "High-protein" only means an AP flour with more protein than most, and does not imply that more protein is better generally.
Two comments. First, I don't recommend or like high-protein, refined flours, as, in new-world growing regions, these are sourced from hard grains. As a result, they will have higher degree of milling-associated starch damage, which negatively impacts product quality and volume. Instead, I recommend all-purpose flours with medium to medium-high elasticity values, low-to-medium softness, and low-to-medium starch-damage values. As for higher-extraction flours, of course you can use them! However, they require their own, attendant considerations. If you want no perceptible sourness, then you have to have exacting technique and very good temperature control. But can it be done? Yes! I'll share some techniques and formulas done by real-world bakery owners who use high-extraction flours and an SSS in my upcoming guide. I don't have the time or space here to elaborate.
I think the SS is meant to be more effective than that; it essentially mimics the first dough process for panettone. At some point I hope Ian will weigh in here to answer questions, but I don't know if he will.
Lola - As I said, your starter needs to be active before you use it in a SS. So to make an active 100%-hydration starter, you feed it and use it once it is mature.
Okay ... let me see if I have this correct - I start off with 15g flour and 15g water, then another batch that is 15g flour and 15g water, PLUS 15g of the mixture I'd made before proceeding to the sweet starter blend?
Yes, sitting in the refrigerator for goodness knows how long. Unfortunately, my husband isn't much of a fan of homemade bread and there is just two of us, so I rarely make bread.
okay, gotcha. This is definitely an "advanced" technique I wouldn't recommend until you are already very familiar with sourdough baking, and the sort of thing that works best with a starter that gets a lot of regular use. (That's what I mean by "active.") If you did want to try it, then I'd first recommend feeding your starter for awhile until you know yours is active.
If you do, then yes: you'll make the first liquid build with 15g each of flour, water, and starter.
When making the sweet starter by hand or mixer, should I just mix it adequately until no flour bits left? Also just mix the water, sugar, flour and starter at once?
Thanks Andrew and thanks Ian! Following your advice and proportions I tried to adapt Kozunak recipe by Breadstalker. That recipe although calls for a first dough (featuring SSS, more sugar, milk and flour) to proof between SSS and main dough. Brioche turned cottony soft and not acid at all, the whole process took 48 hours )without considering cold retard). Do you believe the first dough could be avoided by mixing the mature SSS (of course prepared according to the proportions explained above) into the final dough? For reference this is the recipe I have used several times now: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqvYPZbgXpM/?igsh=MmRhYjZ6dXJiMGZu
Thanks for your time and your consideration! Vittoria
Vittoria - I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but if the question is can you make this bread using a single-SS method, I'm sure the answer is yes. I've been using Ian's method to make choreg (Armenian Easter bread) with it this week, and it works great. I am going to have an update to my post soon, but the two key changes I'll suggest are:
1) Don't use 3 builds for the LL unless your starter is VERY active. It is better to do two 6h builds that are slightly more than doubled (and clearly active) than three shorter ones. If you notice the starter gets progressively slower with each build, it is a sign you are moving it to the next build too quickly, and your final fermentation is bound to be sluggish if you do.
2) Let the bulk dough proof until you see a little expansion before shaping it, especially if you need to refrigerate the dough before shaping. (This should happen between 6-10h after mixing.) I've found that if you refrigerate a dough too early, it can slow the final fermentation down significantly.
That said, if you find the shaped loaves are proofing slowly, don't give up! I made some earlier this week that I shaped in the evening, expecting them to be ready to bake the next morning, 12h later. They weren't, and they looked no different than right after shaping. I figured it was a lost cause, but decided to see if anything would happen anyway. Later that night, 24h after shaping, they had finally risen, and baked off beautifully.
Thanks a lot for the quick answer that makes clear a lot of elements to me. I will try again and obviously I wait for you recipe of a sweet enrich dough to be published! Best, Vittoria
In the beginning of the article you say 20% of starter in the sweet starter build and at the end it's 40% starter in the same formula. Is that a typo or did I miss a point here?
Thanks for this article! Been following Ian and practising his ideas for a while now and it's nice to have such a nice summary of the sweet starter.
That was a mistake on my part. Ian says 20% starter on a per-flour basis (ie, 20% prefermented flour). Since the seed is a liquid levain, it is 40%. I've corrected it now, thanks for the head's up.
Glad you liked it. I'm working on a follow-up to this post after having worked with the process a bit more.
Hi Andrew, I am slighlty confused. In the article I had understood that the sweet starter needs to have 15% of prefermented flour accounting for the flour that comes from the liquid starter but in the excel sheet it gives 15% of flour + 40% liquid starter which equals to 18%. Is it a mistake or did I misunderstand ?
Lucie - Good catch. There was an error in the calculations on that sheet that I recently fixed. It was minor, and 18% is close enough, but I have uploaded an updated one now. Let me know if you have any trouble using it. I've made it a little more versatile now, since it is flexible enough to use different amounts of everything and still get correct numbers. I am working on a follow up to my post, covering the use of a liquid sweet starter by one of the bakers that Ian mentions in our interview. More soon!
Hi Andrew, my SS doesnt seem to rise as much as yours. Ive followed the guidelines and also tried tweaking water and sugar amount a bit, but it's never been able to leaven the final doughs I make. The SS rises by about 20-30% at most. (Is that all I can expect?) Is the pictured SS at its peak?
The stiff sweet starter process is complex, and I'm not sure I have the ability to diagnose what's going on here at a distance. I will say that it really does require a healthy, active starter, so what I'd guess is that yours isn't active enough, especially if you say that it only expands by 20-30% in the SSS stage. You should see very good activity in the liquid levain builds before you even build it—if it doesn't double within four hours, that's a red flag. And if it doesn't, moving forward is just going to weaken activity. I think many people are better off doing two builds rather than three, unless it's super active, since at least that way you can find the time to let it double.
This is the sort of "experimental" practice that is probably done experimentally at first: do a basic dough on a small scale while you are learning how to make it work, and only then start using it to make things with expensive ingredients or on a larger scale.
I will say that I am probably *not* going to include SSS in my book, because it is an advanced technique, and am going to talk about the liquid sweet starter process instead, which is much easier for anyone to pull off. I have a post in the works about it, but it will be awhile before I have time to finish it.
Thanks for the reply! My liquid starter does triple in size within 3-4 hours and I do two back to back feedings beforehand, so im 99.9% sure that's not the issue.
I have done sweet liquid leavened brioche with some success in the past, but this stiff one is a challenge.
I have a question. Say if I want to use the sweet stiff starter approach to make an enriched dough bread, just as an example, if the original yeast recipe calls for say 50g sugar, and when I make the SS I used 30g of sugar, so when I do the final mixing, i only need to add an additional 20g, is that right? And would there be a case that the original recipe calls for less sugar than is required to build the SS?
Unfortunately, you are going to need to experiment when converting a yeasted recipe to a SS one, because:
a) some of the sugar in the SS gets consumed by the SS, so it won't "sweeten" the loaf
b) sourdough enriched breads, even those made with a SS have some acidity that generally needs balancing with *more* sugar to achieve a similar flavor profile.
I usually start by keeping both the original % of sugar in the final dough, plus whatever goes into the SS, then adjust from there.
Oh I have one more question. If my starter is usually 75% hydration, can I just use that as a seed for the 1:1:1 ratio quick builds before making the SS? Or should I convert my starter into 100% hydration in the first round of quick build? Just wondering how much difference is that going to make, as less work is always better :)
I just came accross this post now, so I wanted to know if the sweet starter is only used for enriched breads like brioche or is it used for normal breads,so that one can get less sour notes ?
What about using whole grain flour in place of white?
"You want to use white high-protein all-purpose or bread flour for the liquid-levain builds, because whole-grain or less-refined flours will encourage acid production (ditto for the sweet starter build). If you are working toward a white flour final dough, use the same flour as the final dough for all of your builds. (If your final dough contains high-extraction or whole-wheat flour, save it for the final dough and use white flour in all of the starter builds.)"
May I ask? My initial thought when reading the examples was to use a 14.2% Lancelot then I read Ian’s feedback, I wonder now? do I go standard malted bread 12.7%? What would you recommend?
I’m very interested in this field of investigation. I’ve personally favored a low inoculation cool, yeast forward starter but could never reconcile my experience with the information available. This article rang lots of bells for me. Thank you both for the generous contribution of your time🙏🏻
I'd recommend King Arthur AP flour or an equivalent. That's basically what Ian refers to, and it's what I've used myself. (It is my go-to white "bread" flour.)
When I say "high-protein all-purpose or bread flour" I mean high protein AP flour or "normal" bread flour, with a preference for the former. "High-protein" only means an AP flour with more protein than most, and does not imply that more protein is better generally.
Two comments. First, I don't recommend or like high-protein, refined flours, as, in new-world growing regions, these are sourced from hard grains. As a result, they will have higher degree of milling-associated starch damage, which negatively impacts product quality and volume. Instead, I recommend all-purpose flours with medium to medium-high elasticity values, low-to-medium softness, and low-to-medium starch-damage values. As for higher-extraction flours, of course you can use them! However, they require their own, attendant considerations. If you want no perceptible sourness, then you have to have exacting technique and very good temperature control. But can it be done? Yes! I'll share some techniques and formulas done by real-world bakery owners who use high-extraction flours and an SSS in my upcoming guide. I don't have the time or space here to elaborate.
Very interesting, how can we stay up to date on this guide?
If I have follow ups (which I will, eventually), they’ll come in new posts, so subscribing to Wordloaf is all you’ll need to do.
I’ve been using panettone 3x refreshed lievitati for croissants and brioche, how different is that process from the sweet starter?
I think the SS is meant to be more effective than that; it essentially mimics the first dough process for panettone. At some point I hope Ian will weigh in here to answer questions, but I don't know if he will.
He’s a busy shaman!
I'm confused ... how do I get this: 15g active 100%-hydration starter (100%)
Lola - As I said, your starter needs to be active before you use it in a SS. So to make an active 100%-hydration starter, you feed it and use it once it is mature.
Okay ... let me see if I have this correct - I start off with 15g flour and 15g water, then another batch that is 15g flour and 15g water, PLUS 15g of the mixture I'd made before proceeding to the sweet starter blend?
Lola - do you have a sourdough starter already?
Yes, sitting in the refrigerator for goodness knows how long. Unfortunately, my husband isn't much of a fan of homemade bread and there is just two of us, so I rarely make bread.
okay, gotcha. This is definitely an "advanced" technique I wouldn't recommend until you are already very familiar with sourdough baking, and the sort of thing that works best with a starter that gets a lot of regular use. (That's what I mean by "active.") If you did want to try it, then I'd first recommend feeding your starter for awhile until you know yours is active.
If you do, then yes: you'll make the first liquid build with 15g each of flour, water, and starter.
Ahhh, gotcha!
Wow. A dough that can hold in the fridge for four days and then the bread stays soft for a week! Thanks for sussing this out. I've got to try this.
Yeah, that's why I want to try this out
When making the sweet starter by hand or mixer, should I just mix it adequately until no flour bits left? Also just mix the water, sugar, flour and starter at once?
yes and yes!
What a great write up. I can't wait to see how this all shakes out in your book.
Thanks Andrew and thanks Ian! Following your advice and proportions I tried to adapt Kozunak recipe by Breadstalker. That recipe although calls for a first dough (featuring SSS, more sugar, milk and flour) to proof between SSS and main dough. Brioche turned cottony soft and not acid at all, the whole process took 48 hours )without considering cold retard). Do you believe the first dough could be avoided by mixing the mature SSS (of course prepared according to the proportions explained above) into the final dough? For reference this is the recipe I have used several times now: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CqvYPZbgXpM/?igsh=MmRhYjZ6dXJiMGZu
Thanks for your time and your consideration! Vittoria
Vittoria - I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but if the question is can you make this bread using a single-SS method, I'm sure the answer is yes. I've been using Ian's method to make choreg (Armenian Easter bread) with it this week, and it works great. I am going to have an update to my post soon, but the two key changes I'll suggest are:
1) Don't use 3 builds for the LL unless your starter is VERY active. It is better to do two 6h builds that are slightly more than doubled (and clearly active) than three shorter ones. If you notice the starter gets progressively slower with each build, it is a sign you are moving it to the next build too quickly, and your final fermentation is bound to be sluggish if you do.
2) Let the bulk dough proof until you see a little expansion before shaping it, especially if you need to refrigerate the dough before shaping. (This should happen between 6-10h after mixing.) I've found that if you refrigerate a dough too early, it can slow the final fermentation down significantly.
That said, if you find the shaped loaves are proofing slowly, don't give up! I made some earlier this week that I shaped in the evening, expecting them to be ready to bake the next morning, 12h later. They weren't, and they looked no different than right after shaping. I figured it was a lost cause, but decided to see if anything would happen anyway. Later that night, 24h after shaping, they had finally risen, and baked off beautifully.
Thanks a lot for the quick answer that makes clear a lot of elements to me. I will try again and obviously I wait for you recipe of a sweet enrich dough to be published! Best, Vittoria
And I just found out that kozunak and choreg appear to be two words for the same Easter bread if google is right ;-)
that makes sense!
Hi Andrew,
In the beginning of the article you say 20% of starter in the sweet starter build and at the end it's 40% starter in the same formula. Is that a typo or did I miss a point here?
Thanks for this article! Been following Ian and practising his ideas for a while now and it's nice to have such a nice summary of the sweet starter.
Matthias -
That was a mistake on my part. Ian says 20% starter on a per-flour basis (ie, 20% prefermented flour). Since the seed is a liquid levain, it is 40%. I've corrected it now, thanks for the head's up.
Glad you liked it. I'm working on a follow-up to this post after having worked with the process a bit more.
- Andrew
Hi Andrew, I am slighlty confused. In the article I had understood that the sweet starter needs to have 15% of prefermented flour accounting for the flour that comes from the liquid starter but in the excel sheet it gives 15% of flour + 40% liquid starter which equals to 18%. Is it a mistake or did I misunderstand ?
Thanks in advance.
Lucie - Good catch. There was an error in the calculations on that sheet that I recently fixed. It was minor, and 18% is close enough, but I have uploaded an updated one now. Let me know if you have any trouble using it. I've made it a little more versatile now, since it is flexible enough to use different amounts of everything and still get correct numbers. I am working on a follow up to my post, covering the use of a liquid sweet starter by one of the bakers that Ian mentions in our interview. More soon!
Hi Andrew, my SS doesnt seem to rise as much as yours. Ive followed the guidelines and also tried tweaking water and sugar amount a bit, but it's never been able to leaven the final doughs I make. The SS rises by about 20-30% at most. (Is that all I can expect?) Is the pictured SS at its peak?
Andreas -
The stiff sweet starter process is complex, and I'm not sure I have the ability to diagnose what's going on here at a distance. I will say that it really does require a healthy, active starter, so what I'd guess is that yours isn't active enough, especially if you say that it only expands by 20-30% in the SSS stage. You should see very good activity in the liquid levain builds before you even build it—if it doesn't double within four hours, that's a red flag. And if it doesn't, moving forward is just going to weaken activity. I think many people are better off doing two builds rather than three, unless it's super active, since at least that way you can find the time to let it double.
This is the sort of "experimental" practice that is probably done experimentally at first: do a basic dough on a small scale while you are learning how to make it work, and only then start using it to make things with expensive ingredients or on a larger scale.
I will say that I am probably *not* going to include SSS in my book, because it is an advanced technique, and am going to talk about the liquid sweet starter process instead, which is much easier for anyone to pull off. I have a post in the works about it, but it will be awhile before I have time to finish it.
Thanks for the reply! My liquid starter does triple in size within 3-4 hours and I do two back to back feedings beforehand, so im 99.9% sure that's not the issue.
I have done sweet liquid leavened brioche with some success in the past, but this stiff one is a challenge.
Ill keep trying, ty.
I have a question. Say if I want to use the sweet stiff starter approach to make an enriched dough bread, just as an example, if the original yeast recipe calls for say 50g sugar, and when I make the SS I used 30g of sugar, so when I do the final mixing, i only need to add an additional 20g, is that right? And would there be a case that the original recipe calls for less sugar than is required to build the SS?
Unfortunately, you are going to need to experiment when converting a yeasted recipe to a SS one, because:
a) some of the sugar in the SS gets consumed by the SS, so it won't "sweeten" the loaf
b) sourdough enriched breads, even those made with a SS have some acidity that generally needs balancing with *more* sugar to achieve a similar flavor profile.
I usually start by keeping both the original % of sugar in the final dough, plus whatever goes into the SS, then adjust from there.
That makes sense! Thank you!
Oh I have one more question. If my starter is usually 75% hydration, can I just use that as a seed for the 1:1:1 ratio quick builds before making the SS? Or should I convert my starter into 100% hydration in the first round of quick build? Just wondering how much difference is that going to make, as less work is always better :)
Hi Andrew
I just came accross this post now, so I wanted to know if the sweet starter is only used for enriched breads like brioche or is it used for normal breads,so that one can get less sour notes ?