I'm loving the newsletter! Along the lines of the regional hoagie, I would be interested in a recipe for Atlantic City-style Italian sub bread, made famous by White House Subs (but made by local bakeries Rando's and Formica's). No sub bread/roll recipes that I've tried have gotten it quite right, but I'm sure you could figure it out!
Greg - will have a look at that one. If you have links to recipes, let me know, so I can see what they are going for. How does it differ from Philly-style hoagie rolls?
Thanks! I don’t have any specific recipe links, but I can tell you what I do know from reading interviews with the Formica bakery owner online: they use only flour, water, salt, and (brewer’s) yeast for the rolls. They claim to proof the dough 3 times, and they also claim they can use more flour than usual because of the cleanliness of the local water (though I suspect this is a similar superstition to the NYC water/bagel controversy you guys explored at ATK, and the dough is just low hydration). Semolina flour is used to prevent the bottoms of the rolls from sticking. They use steam-injection ovens now, although for many years they used a coal-fired oven. The last detail I know is that Rando’s bakes their rolls at 425F, per an article in the Press of Atlantic City.
As for the differences between AC and Philly-style rolls, the AC sub bread is overall chewier and skinnier. It has a much tougher (and more rustically slashed) crust, and while the interior is soft, it’s still more firm than something like an Amoroso roll from Philly. Unfortunately, there aren’t too many good photos of AC-style bread online, but google images does have a few if my description is lacking. I’d be happy to try finding more info if needed. Again, I love the newsletter and am very excited to see what’s in store!
Great post as always! I'm really enjoying your newsletters!
I'd be super interested in reading about Austrian/German Bauernbrot because from my research it seems to be very complicated (often using several different types of flours etc).
Hi Andrew, thank you for sharing your knowledge and passion with us!
I'd love to see if you have (or can develop) a recipe using your sourdough starter for cinnamon rolls? I've been searching online for one and haven't come across one yet. TIA!
Julie - this one is definitely possible. I'll be doing a recipe for sourdough enriched dough at some point soon, and cinnamon rolls are but one thing you could make with it.
Wonderful content! I was hoping you could share a recipe for a sourdough bread that uses a higher proportion of red or white wheat (say 50% bread flour 50% wheat flour). I have a large amount of local red wheat and want to put it to good use.
I'd love to know more about the possibilities and constraints of using a starter instead of yeast (and how to substitute if possible). For sourdough recipes, I'd also love a sub or hoagie roll, a Shokupan-style loaf, bagels, naan, and styles of bread from other parts of the world that might be less familiar in North America, like those from Turkey or Uzbekistan. I'm less interested in yeasted breads because of all the effort I put in to developing the starter through your method.
I second this! Ever since I started baking with sourdough I've been frustrated that so many sourdough recipes call for additional active dry yeast. Feels like cheating
Savannah - there's an interesting set of reasons to add yeast to a sourdough (I'll talk about it someday), but there's never a _requirement_ that you do so (unless your starter isn't 100% mature, I guess).
LOL, Rhianna! That's quite a list. I can't think of one on it that isn't also on my to do list, so stay tuned. Ans as for sourdough subbing for yeast, I'll add that one. It requires a certain amount of experimentation, but usually it's not too challenging to sort out.
Also, I’d mentioned I’ve been trying to make a New Orleans-style French bread/po-boy loaf for years. It’s very fluffy...almost cotton-candy like inside, but with a crackling thin crust. It’s very low-density: a 6” loaf is 3” in diameter but only weighs 2 ounces. Leidenheimer's is the most popular brand. I usually buy (3) 3’ loaves whenever I visit NOLA; they get divided and frozen for po-boys all year!
Thank you for introducing newbies like me to the quarantine starter. I wonder if you have plans to share a recipe for a multigrain sourdough loaf or a whole-wheat one, I would really appreciate that.
I'd love to read something about what fundamentally distinguishes breads from each other. The difference between a yeasted bread and a sourdough or an enriched bread and a non-enriched bread are pretty clear to me, but what's the difference between, say, a pain au levain and other kinds of sourdough? Is it just shaping? Ratio of ingredients? How does that change the flavor?
Alex - That's a HUGE topic, but I can promise you that over time I'll go into detail on each of these subjects, hopefully you'll have a better understanding of these differences once I do.
Hi Andrew! I am near Madison, WI and spent a few years living downtown, so it is really neat to see your interest in Stella's Hot and Spicy Cheese Bread. There has been a quarantine-inspired movement of folks recreating it at home to fulfill their cheese bread needs during this home-bound time. I look forward to your version, as well as that thin crust pizza recipe (!!!).
Thanks for all the knowledge you share! I would love to read more about Tangzhong vs. yudane, which is easier (yudane for me), which produces a softer, fluffier bread, which stays fresh longer. I don’t bake enough shokupan with my starter to do a comparison, but sounds like a perfect experiment for you to tackle. Thanks again!
Xuan - This is something I haven't explored much myself. My sense is that the only practical difference between the two is the amount of flour in the paste relative to the total. The hydration of the paste shouldn't matter, once the paste becomes part of the dough (ie, if you put less water in the paste, you need more water in the dough, and vice versa). Increasing the % of flour in the paste will give you a softer and possibly longer-lasting loaf, but it also means you have less gluten for structure. So it's always a balance, one that is dictated by the style of bread you want to achieve. But it's an interesting one to explore someday!
I'm interested in more sourdough starter discard recipies. I only have two so far: pancakes and biscuits. What about some muffins or quick breads? I'm really looking forward to what I can learn about breadmaking in this wordloaf project.
First of all, I wanted to express my gratitude for your Tiny Sourdough Starter -- with the flour shortages we were experiencing earlier, a standard sourdough starter recipe was definitely off the table for me. My started-from-tiny one is very active and I've been having a lot of success with it. I too would like sourdough discard recipes, and one for ciabatta.
My 7 year old daughter & I are having a lot of fun baking a loaf a week from our tiny starter. Thank you! We just baked loaf 24 today. I noticed on the organic white flour I get from Costco that it contains malted barley flour. Thinking of trying to find a different one that doesn't, for health reasons- my husband gets headaches from glutamates. Is there a pure (wheat) flour that would make a good sourdough loaf? Also, wondering about a whole grain sourdough loaf recipe that's not too dense. Thank you!
Lorna - I'm not sure what you mean by "headaches from glutamates". Malted barley flour (also known as 'diastatic malt') is added to flour to increase the amount of amylase, a starch-to-sugar converting enzyme that is naturally present in all flours and that is essential to fermentation and browning. I often add diastatic malt to my long fermented recipes (it's a topic I'll cover soon). It doesn't have anything to do with glutamates or glutamic acid, so it shouldn't be a problem for your husband! As for whole grain loaves, those are coming!
Would love to learn more about the science of starter and breadmaking; what modifications to the different variables do. I've seen cookie guides that go over this; what happens when you modify the ratio of sugar/brown sugar, what difference does melted vs softened butter make, etc. So for these purposes, slightly more or less amounts of starter, temperature variables, etc.
Thank you, Andrew!
Happy to share, Edith!!
I'm loving the newsletter! Along the lines of the regional hoagie, I would be interested in a recipe for Atlantic City-style Italian sub bread, made famous by White House Subs (but made by local bakeries Rando's and Formica's). No sub bread/roll recipes that I've tried have gotten it quite right, but I'm sure you could figure it out!
Greg - will have a look at that one. If you have links to recipes, let me know, so I can see what they are going for. How does it differ from Philly-style hoagie rolls?
Thanks! I don’t have any specific recipe links, but I can tell you what I do know from reading interviews with the Formica bakery owner online: they use only flour, water, salt, and (brewer’s) yeast for the rolls. They claim to proof the dough 3 times, and they also claim they can use more flour than usual because of the cleanliness of the local water (though I suspect this is a similar superstition to the NYC water/bagel controversy you guys explored at ATK, and the dough is just low hydration). Semolina flour is used to prevent the bottoms of the rolls from sticking. They use steam-injection ovens now, although for many years they used a coal-fired oven. The last detail I know is that Rando’s bakes their rolls at 425F, per an article in the Press of Atlantic City.
As for the differences between AC and Philly-style rolls, the AC sub bread is overall chewier and skinnier. It has a much tougher (and more rustically slashed) crust, and while the interior is soft, it’s still more firm than something like an Amoroso roll from Philly. Unfortunately, there aren’t too many good photos of AC-style bread online, but google images does have a few if my description is lacking. I’d be happy to try finding more info if needed. Again, I love the newsletter and am very excited to see what’s in store!
You can see some images here: https://randobakery.com/products/sub-rolls.html
Great post as always! I'm really enjoying your newsletters!
I'd be super interested in reading about Austrian/German Bauernbrot because from my research it seems to be very complicated (often using several different types of flours etc).
Manuel - added to the list!
Hi Andrew, thank you for sharing your knowledge and passion with us!
I'd love to see if you have (or can develop) a recipe using your sourdough starter for cinnamon rolls? I've been searching online for one and haven't come across one yet. TIA!
Julie - this one is definitely possible. I'll be doing a recipe for sourdough enriched dough at some point soon, and cinnamon rolls are but one thing you could make with it.
Wonderful content! I was hoping you could share a recipe for a sourdough bread that uses a higher proportion of red or white wheat (say 50% bread flour 50% wheat flour). I have a large amount of local red wheat and want to put it to good use.
Coming soon! This week's loaf is 25% whole grain, and you can definitely use more if you are feeling experimental.
Wasn’t sure if you realized Cook's Country recreated the spicy cheese bread back in 2016:
https://www.cookscountry.com/recipes/8586-spicy-cheese-bread?extcode=MCSKD10L0&ref=new_search_experience_1
Sounds great!
Mark - I remember it! I think I recall it being pretty nice, but as always, I have my own ways of doing things.
I'd love to know more about the possibilities and constraints of using a starter instead of yeast (and how to substitute if possible). For sourdough recipes, I'd also love a sub or hoagie roll, a Shokupan-style loaf, bagels, naan, and styles of bread from other parts of the world that might be less familiar in North America, like those from Turkey or Uzbekistan. I'm less interested in yeasted breads because of all the effort I put in to developing the starter through your method.
And yes, indeed, thank you and glad you're back!
I second this! Ever since I started baking with sourdough I've been frustrated that so many sourdough recipes call for additional active dry yeast. Feels like cheating
Savannah - there's an interesting set of reasons to add yeast to a sourdough (I'll talk about it someday), but there's never a _requirement_ that you do so (unless your starter isn't 100% mature, I guess).
LOL, Rhianna! That's quite a list. I can't think of one on it that isn't also on my to do list, so stay tuned. Ans as for sourdough subbing for yeast, I'll add that one. It requires a certain amount of experimentation, but usually it's not too challenging to sort out.
You asked...? LOL and yay! :-)
Also, I’d mentioned I’ve been trying to make a New Orleans-style French bread/po-boy loaf for years. It’s very fluffy...almost cotton-candy like inside, but with a crackling thin crust. It’s very low-density: a 6” loaf is 3” in diameter but only weighs 2 ounces. Leidenheimer's is the most popular brand. I usually buy (3) 3’ loaves whenever I visit NOLA; they get divided and frozen for po-boys all year!
Mark - good one to add to the list. There seems to be a lot of interest in sub/hoagie rolls here, maybe that should come soon.
Yes! I have been able to make many loaves of sourdough thanks to your quarantinystarter, but hoagie rolls were one of my bigger quarantine fails!
Thank you for introducing newbies like me to the quarantine starter. I wonder if you have plans to share a recipe for a multigrain sourdough loaf or a whole-wheat one, I would really appreciate that.
Yes to this!
Indeed I do! The loaf I'm sharing later this week is part whole grain, and will be a starting point for ones that are higher.
I'd love to read something about what fundamentally distinguishes breads from each other. The difference between a yeasted bread and a sourdough or an enriched bread and a non-enriched bread are pretty clear to me, but what's the difference between, say, a pain au levain and other kinds of sourdough? Is it just shaping? Ratio of ingredients? How does that change the flavor?
yes!!
I second this
Alex - That's a HUGE topic, but I can promise you that over time I'll go into detail on each of these subjects, hopefully you'll have a better understanding of these differences once I do.
Hi Andrew! I am near Madison, WI and spent a few years living downtown, so it is really neat to see your interest in Stella's Hot and Spicy Cheese Bread. There has been a quarantine-inspired movement of folks recreating it at home to fulfill their cheese bread needs during this home-bound time. I look forward to your version, as well as that thin crust pizza recipe (!!!).
YES to this!
Madeline - very cool! I'll definitely keep it on my list. As for thin-crust pizza, that's coming within a few weeks, so keep your pizza wheel handy.
Thanks for all the knowledge you share! I would love to read more about Tangzhong vs. yudane, which is easier (yudane for me), which produces a softer, fluffier bread, which stays fresh longer. I don’t bake enough shokupan with my starter to do a comparison, but sounds like a perfect experiment for you to tackle. Thanks again!
Xuan - This is something I haven't explored much myself. My sense is that the only practical difference between the two is the amount of flour in the paste relative to the total. The hydration of the paste shouldn't matter, once the paste becomes part of the dough (ie, if you put less water in the paste, you need more water in the dough, and vice versa). Increasing the % of flour in the paste will give you a softer and possibly longer-lasting loaf, but it also means you have less gluten for structure. So it's always a balance, one that is dictated by the style of bread you want to achieve. But it's an interesting one to explore someday!
I'm interested in more sourdough starter discard recipies. I only have two so far: pancakes and biscuits. What about some muffins or quick breads? I'm really looking forward to what I can learn about breadmaking in this wordloaf project.
Yes to this!
Harold - I have a discard quick bread in the works, along with a bunch of other discard recipes, so stay tuned!
First of all, I wanted to express my gratitude for your Tiny Sourdough Starter -- with the flour shortages we were experiencing earlier, a standard sourdough starter recipe was definitely off the table for me. My started-from-tiny one is very active and I've been having a lot of success with it. I too would like sourdough discard recipes, and one for ciabatta.
DeAnna - You're very welcome! And discard and ciabatta recipes are on the way!
My 7 year old daughter & I are having a lot of fun baking a loaf a week from our tiny starter. Thank you! We just baked loaf 24 today. I noticed on the organic white flour I get from Costco that it contains malted barley flour. Thinking of trying to find a different one that doesn't, for health reasons- my husband gets headaches from glutamates. Is there a pure (wheat) flour that would make a good sourdough loaf? Also, wondering about a whole grain sourdough loaf recipe that's not too dense. Thank you!
Yes, would also like to see a whole grain sourdough recipe!
Lorna - I'm not sure what you mean by "headaches from glutamates". Malted barley flour (also known as 'diastatic malt') is added to flour to increase the amount of amylase, a starch-to-sugar converting enzyme that is naturally present in all flours and that is essential to fermentation and browning. I often add diastatic malt to my long fermented recipes (it's a topic I'll cover soon). It doesn't have anything to do with glutamates or glutamic acid, so it shouldn't be a problem for your husband! As for whole grain loaves, those are coming!
Would love to learn more about the science of starter and breadmaking; what modifications to the different variables do. I've seen cookie guides that go over this; what happens when you modify the ratio of sugar/brown sugar, what difference does melted vs softened butter make, etc. So for these purposes, slightly more or less amounts of starter, temperature variables, etc.
Loralyn - I covered this a tiny bit in today's microbiology post, and will definitely be getting into all of it in greater detail soon!