yes, thanks for the head's up (apropos, given my introduction). I changed the example numbers mid-stream and never updated the final formula. I've corrected it now.
Hi Andrew, the first example still has a mistake. The formula shows 73 as friction temp, but the calculation is using 71. Also, in the second example, you’re using 25 as your friction factor, but you say it’s “hand mixing” so it should be 5 based on your explanation earlier in the post.
Hi Andrew, well you just clarified something that I have pondered for 40 years! I started baking with those yellow packages of dry yeast. I used to always measure the temp. of the water per the instructions on the back of the package. Now I understand why the results varied! I am still working on baker's math but this math I got. Thank you.
Jonny - yes, precisely. That is what I meant above by "depending upon the specific device". The numbers I mentioned are ballpark, but ideally you would test to determine the friction factor for your specific machine. You basically work backwards using the same formula, but since it's a pain, I didn't include the method here. (A baker using the same mixer day in day out would simply figure out the exact friction factor over time.)
So, when I read recipes and temperature starts coming into play, that's when I wonder if I'm cut out for this world. I feel my patience and passion wane. If I continue to not pay attention to dough temperature, what will I notice as either limitations to my breadbaking or faults in what I bake
Rhianna - It'll just mean that your timeline won't be the same as the one described in the recipe. DDT is for bakers who want to be precise and consistent. Also ones who want to deal with extreme kitchen temps and still be able to bake.
Hi Andrew, I am just curious if using a slightly smaller pan would be acceptable here? I have the ATK-recommended loaf pan and I believe it is 8.5x4.5. I’ve made other recipes that call for a 9x5 and it’s worked out okay, but I figured I’d double-check here! Thanks, as always!
Thanks Andrew. I have worked with Maurizio's version (which he describes as Final Dough Temperature, FDT) and have made a point of always measuring the temperature at the end of final mixing to help me see how close I came with the math. Comparing theory with reality :)
Hi Andrew, another DDT question for you. I'm making milk buns that include a Tangzhong, would I include the temp of the Tangzhong as my 'Levain' factor in the equation? Considering that I'm also including addition flour at room temp?
I've started monitoring temperature more closely during a long bulk ferment period (12 hours). Very helpful. Thanks!
Question: As I monitor dough that is in the bulk proof stage, with all other factors that could influence temperature staying the same, should I expect dough temperature to gradually increase on its own? Does the fermentation process create heat that actually warms the dough during a long, bulk proof period?
Douglas - yes, in theory (fermentation is an exothermic process), but in practice I don't think it affects dough temperatures significantly. (Maybe with very large quantities of dough, which wouldn't release their heat to the environment easily.)
Thanks Andrew. A follow-up question - I've been reading temp by sticking an instant-read thermometer into the dough during its bulk proof. Is that wise? It seems like I'm allowing the dough to "deflate" with each stick, especially toward the end of the bulk proof time. Could the "stick" possibly negatively alter the proof process and outcome?
Nope, that's not something to worry about. Dough is not a balloon that you can pop. If the dough is collapsing when you poke it, then you are overproofing—it shouldn't otherwise be so fragile.
Does the formula depend on the hydration? I tried making my dough at 65⁰ room temp. Using the formula, I added 99⁰ water and the dough was 84⁰ rather than 78⁰. My dough is 80% hydration.
it shouldn't matter in practice, no. Six degrees off is not bad, but you should be able to get to within 2 degrees, which is close enough. Try it again next time and let me know how it goes. I think it is important to understand how to do this, but I've also been reconsidering just HOW important it is, especially when the dough proofs for a long time. The temperature of the place you proof the dough is likely more important than the start temperature, since that is where it is going to land sooner or later anyway.
I completely agree with you. The nature of digital readings can lead to the pursuit of unnecessary precision where it doesn't matter much. I can tweak my water temperature to get closer with the starting temperature but I agree with you that slight differences in initial temperature have much less effect than the longer duration proofing temperature. Thank you for helping me think more holistically (and I'm not talking about the crumb ;-) about baking bread!
Shouldn't the first example be 12+12+73+7.6? (Instead of 10+10+7.6+71)
yes, thanks for the head's up (apropos, given my introduction). I changed the example numbers mid-stream and never updated the final formula. I've corrected it now.
Hi Andrew, the first example still has a mistake. The formula shows 73 as friction temp, but the calculation is using 71. Also, in the second example, you’re using 25 as your friction factor, but you say it’s “hand mixing” so it should be 5 based on your explanation earlier in the post.
ugh, fixed it, thanks. I finished this post at 5 this morning, after a mostly-sleepless night.
Hi Andrew, well you just clarified something that I have pondered for 40 years! I started baking with those yellow packages of dry yeast. I used to always measure the temp. of the water per the instructions on the back of the package. Now I understand why the results varied! I am still working on baker's math but this math I got. Thank you.
Also, do you use Cuisinart's 14-cup food processor? I'm wondering if different models would result in different temperatures.
Jonny - yes, precisely. That is what I meant above by "depending upon the specific device". The numbers I mentioned are ballpark, but ideally you would test to determine the friction factor for your specific machine. You basically work backwards using the same formula, but since it's a pain, I didn't include the method here. (A baker using the same mixer day in day out would simply figure out the exact friction factor over time.)
So, when I read recipes and temperature starts coming into play, that's when I wonder if I'm cut out for this world. I feel my patience and passion wane. If I continue to not pay attention to dough temperature, what will I notice as either limitations to my breadbaking or faults in what I bake
Rhianna - It'll just mean that your timeline won't be the same as the one described in the recipe. DDT is for bakers who want to be precise and consistent. Also ones who want to deal with extreme kitchen temps and still be able to bake.
Hi Andrew, I am just curious if using a slightly smaller pan would be acceptable here? I have the ATK-recommended loaf pan and I believe it is 8.5x4.5. I’ve made other recipes that call for a 9x5 and it’s worked out okay, but I figured I’d double-check here! Thanks, as always!
I'm assuming you are referring to the EM bread on today's post. Yes. 9x5 is shorthand for any loaf pan, you'll be fine!
Oh, yes! I was reading over this and posted in the wrong section. Thank you!
Thanks Andrew. I have worked with Maurizio's version (which he describes as Final Dough Temperature, FDT) and have made a point of always measuring the temperature at the end of final mixing to help me see how close I came with the math. Comparing theory with reality :)
Hi Andrew, another DDT question for you. I'm making milk buns that include a Tangzhong, would I include the temp of the Tangzhong as my 'Levain' factor in the equation? Considering that I'm also including addition flour at room temp?
Tom - yes, I'd definitely include it, especially if you plan on adding it hot. (There's no harm in letting it cool to RT before use, though.)
I've started monitoring temperature more closely during a long bulk ferment period (12 hours). Very helpful. Thanks!
Question: As I monitor dough that is in the bulk proof stage, with all other factors that could influence temperature staying the same, should I expect dough temperature to gradually increase on its own? Does the fermentation process create heat that actually warms the dough during a long, bulk proof period?
Douglas - yes, in theory (fermentation is an exothermic process), but in practice I don't think it affects dough temperatures significantly. (Maybe with very large quantities of dough, which wouldn't release their heat to the environment easily.)
Thanks Andrew. A follow-up question - I've been reading temp by sticking an instant-read thermometer into the dough during its bulk proof. Is that wise? It seems like I'm allowing the dough to "deflate" with each stick, especially toward the end of the bulk proof time. Could the "stick" possibly negatively alter the proof process and outcome?
Nope, that's not something to worry about. Dough is not a balloon that you can pop. If the dough is collapsing when you poke it, then you are overproofing—it shouldn't otherwise be so fragile.
Very good to know. Thank you very much.
Does the formula depend on the hydration? I tried making my dough at 65⁰ room temp. Using the formula, I added 99⁰ water and the dough was 84⁰ rather than 78⁰. My dough is 80% hydration.
it shouldn't matter in practice, no. Six degrees off is not bad, but you should be able to get to within 2 degrees, which is close enough. Try it again next time and let me know how it goes. I think it is important to understand how to do this, but I've also been reconsidering just HOW important it is, especially when the dough proofs for a long time. The temperature of the place you proof the dough is likely more important than the start temperature, since that is where it is going to land sooner or later anyway.
I completely agree with you. The nature of digital readings can lead to the pursuit of unnecessary precision where it doesn't matter much. I can tweak my water temperature to get closer with the starting temperature but I agree with you that slight differences in initial temperature have much less effect than the longer duration proofing temperature. Thank you for helping me think more holistically (and I'm not talking about the crumb ;-) about baking bread!