Yes it's a problem, but I do like your keyhole crumb. Many panettone bakers have this issue, to some extent. Of course, panettone are hung upside down for 8-12 hours just after baking to prevent collapse. And are baked in paper moulds to lessen the amount of steam collecting on the sides..
This reminds me of the 'shrinking steamed buns' problem. Steamed buns (while not made from an enriched dough) can shrink and collapse when removed from the steamer seemingly without reason. I had to scour YouTube in Chinese for a while to find a thoroughly tested answer. The consensus was that a strong gluten formation could be a detriment, which makes sense based on your article given steamed buns' lack of a crust. The recommended solution was to use flour with a lower protein content and to not give the dough a long initial proof in the hopes of preventing an inner structure too stretchy when hit by the sudden lack of heat. There's no opportunity for a keyhole given the lack of a pan, but it feels like the same problem.
A former co-worker who is a baker, said that he bakes an extra ten minutes. His brioche uses about 40% butter only. 13" long Pullman pan with lid on, perfect rectangles every time. It's drier than I would personally like, but the shape is always there.
The other thing I read about and tried was dividing and shaping multiple loaves to put into one loaf pan. I did this with a batch of shokupan. It seemed to work (although shokupan no where near as much butter as brioche so I will try that next time). I guess the smaller loaves supported one another? It was definitely a lot easier to handle with a 13" pullman pan. Full disclosure: I'm a very novice bread baker, but very interested in solving this issue, my first brioche had a 1" waist so to speak lol.
Pan brioche is often made "Nanterre" style, with two rows of little balls side by side. it might help a little to prevent keyholing—since each ball is only taut within itself—but I've still had it happen with it.
"Baking an extra 10 minutes" is a good idea, but how do you know when to start the 10 minute clock? That's why taking it out of the pan is a useful instruction, because then you can say, "Remove from pan and bake until sides are browned, about 10 minutes more."
It brings me such comfort to know that even very experienced bakers have this happen! My solution is a little more after-the-fact. After baking a lighter loaf (milk bread, brioche, etc.), I turn it out of the pan pretty quickly, but lay it on its side to cool, so that the side is supported while the loaf sets. This way the weight is more evenly distributed and the bread need not hold itself up against gravity while the interior is still setting. (A bonus is that my cooling rack leaves small indentations on the loaf, perfectly spaced for slicing!)
You mentioned that one cause of keyholing was the moisture held in by the sides of the pan. Have you considered sacrificing a pan by perforating the sides to allow the moisture to escape and more heat to reach the sides of the bread? Just an idea. It would be tedious to perforate the pan (I'm picturing using an awl or nail to punch small holes from the inside out) but might be worth the experiment.
they sell bottom-perforated pans, actually, but I'm skeptical that a few holes would make enough of a difference. But in any case, I'd never poke holes in my pans, since I put wet doughs and batters in them all the time!
My solution is to pretend that the shape is intentional 😂 but seriously it’s a really interesting post and I’ll definitely try this the next time I bake an enriched bread
Great read, Andrew. Thanks! I really enjoyed this. I'm sitting on some enriched bread (doing a retard right now) and I went to bed early and didn't do as long up front bulk. Now I'm thinking that was a good decision! My even vaguely enriched fruit loaves seem to cave a bit. Maybe I should lower the protein content... and give it some naked oven time.
Interesting! I never knew about this keyhole problem because I've never made enriched bread like Brioche or Shokupan. I don't have a stand mixer so I stayed away from enriched dough but is it actually possible to mix by hand, especially your method mentioned using melted butter right from the start rather than kneading in butter after dough is formed. Any advice would be appreciated!
I've been having this issue with my brioche buns! Collapsing after the bake despite great development and proper proofing. Wondering if it could be this issue?
Yes it's a problem, but I do like your keyhole crumb. Many panettone bakers have this issue, to some extent. Of course, panettone are hung upside down for 8-12 hours just after baking to prevent collapse. And are baked in paper moulds to lessen the amount of steam collecting on the sides..
If there's a keyhole, there must be a key!!
Thanks for this post Andrew
This reminds me of the 'shrinking steamed buns' problem. Steamed buns (while not made from an enriched dough) can shrink and collapse when removed from the steamer seemingly without reason. I had to scour YouTube in Chinese for a while to find a thoroughly tested answer. The consensus was that a strong gluten formation could be a detriment, which makes sense based on your article given steamed buns' lack of a crust. The recommended solution was to use flour with a lower protein content and to not give the dough a long initial proof in the hopes of preventing an inner structure too stretchy when hit by the sudden lack of heat. There's no opportunity for a keyhole given the lack of a pan, but it feels like the same problem.
A former co-worker who is a baker, said that he bakes an extra ten minutes. His brioche uses about 40% butter only. 13" long Pullman pan with lid on, perfect rectangles every time. It's drier than I would personally like, but the shape is always there.
The other thing I read about and tried was dividing and shaping multiple loaves to put into one loaf pan. I did this with a batch of shokupan. It seemed to work (although shokupan no where near as much butter as brioche so I will try that next time). I guess the smaller loaves supported one another? It was definitely a lot easier to handle with a 13" pullman pan. Full disclosure: I'm a very novice bread baker, but very interested in solving this issue, my first brioche had a 1" waist so to speak lol.
Pan brioche is often made "Nanterre" style, with two rows of little balls side by side. it might help a little to prevent keyholing—since each ball is only taut within itself—but I've still had it happen with it.
"Baking an extra 10 minutes" is a good idea, but how do you know when to start the 10 minute clock? That's why taking it out of the pan is a useful instruction, because then you can say, "Remove from pan and bake until sides are browned, about 10 minutes more."
It brings me such comfort to know that even very experienced bakers have this happen! My solution is a little more after-the-fact. After baking a lighter loaf (milk bread, brioche, etc.), I turn it out of the pan pretty quickly, but lay it on its side to cool, so that the side is supported while the loaf sets. This way the weight is more evenly distributed and the bread need not hold itself up against gravity while the interior is still setting. (A bonus is that my cooling rack leaves small indentations on the loaf, perfectly spaced for slicing!)
You mentioned that one cause of keyholing was the moisture held in by the sides of the pan. Have you considered sacrificing a pan by perforating the sides to allow the moisture to escape and more heat to reach the sides of the bread? Just an idea. It would be tedious to perforate the pan (I'm picturing using an awl or nail to punch small holes from the inside out) but might be worth the experiment.
they sell bottom-perforated pans, actually, but I'm skeptical that a few holes would make enough of a difference. But in any case, I'd never poke holes in my pans, since I put wet doughs and batters in them all the time!
My solution is to pretend that the shape is intentional 😂 but seriously it’s a really interesting post and I’ll definitely try this the next time I bake an enriched bread
We were having this issue with our shokupan. Using a lower protein flour seems to have helped.
yes! I forgot to mention that I tend to use a softer flour to begin with, and a stronger one always makes it worse
Use potato flakes
not sure how that would solve anything. I sub potato flakes or mashed potatoes for the tangzhong, but the problem does not go away when I do
Put in regular dough as well
sorry, but I have no idea what you mean
I find using a liquid starter , super long refrigerator ferment, no knead and Amish flour works well for anything that has fat in it
This was very interesting; thanks, Andrew. Not that I know where to find one, but I wonder if a perforated loaf pan would make any difference.
Whoops…didn’t read through the comments before writing mine!
Great read, Andrew. Thanks! I really enjoyed this. I'm sitting on some enriched bread (doing a retard right now) and I went to bed early and didn't do as long up front bulk. Now I'm thinking that was a good decision! My even vaguely enriched fruit loaves seem to cave a bit. Maybe I should lower the protein content... and give it some naked oven time.
Interesting! I never knew about this keyhole problem because I've never made enriched bread like Brioche or Shokupan. I don't have a stand mixer so I stayed away from enriched dough but is it actually possible to mix by hand, especially your method mentioned using melted butter right from the start rather than kneading in butter after dough is formed. Any advice would be appreciated!
Jo - Sorry, I can't give you a method or formula for a no-knead brioche right now, but perhaps someday soon I'll share one.
I've been having this issue with my brioche buns! Collapsing after the bake despite great development and proper proofing. Wondering if it could be this issue?
yes, Netta! When freeform loaves keyhole, they collapse and get a wrinkled-skin appearance.