Maybe a little off-topic, but can you give me some kind of idea for a fridge based starter v countertop since I am in Peru (last week it was over 90 every day dry, this week its 80s and damp.)
Not off topic at all. I think you are better off most of the time using the fast approach, with cold water to keep the temperature of the starter on the low side (65?), so that it doubles in the usual 4-6h time frame. As long as it doesn't move too fast and you move it to the fridge at the point that it is about doubled, it will be no different than one proofed in more temperate conditions.
Thank you for the super clear post! A little late to this but wondering whether using colder water is advisable for slowing fermentation? As opposed to adjusting the ratio of culture to added water/flour, as you do here. I've done the former a whole bunch without really considering how it's impacting the resulting levain, but wondering now whether I'm doing my bakes a disservice somehow (e.g., taste, rise, etc.)
Sam - Colder water is another way to modulate fermentation, but the problem with it is that if ambient temperatures are high and the proof time is long enough, the culture will warm up to overcome the lower starting temperature. So that strategy is better for short fermentations, like the fast one I mention above. For longer ones, you are better off lowering the amount of inoculum.
thanks for this--the DDT formula is super helpful.
Question about amounts. It looks like you maintain a much larger quantity of starter than I do. It'd be great if you could walk us through why one might prefer storing (and feeding) a small amount vs a larger amount of starter.
You start with 75g (Do you store that much "asleep" in your fridge?). I usually store, oh, about 40 g. I peel off about 15 g for my first feeding out of the fridge and save the rest for crackers. then I build for a couple days, feeding 2x a day. at each feed I discard about half the starter and feed flour and water 1:1:1. So my starter jar is small and never has much more than 40 g starter in it.
I used to store more-- about a cup and a half of starter in a pint mason jar (this is from before I got my scale!). I have come to prefer this not just to save flour, but also because it seems to keep the acidity under better control.
I'd love to understand better the differences between these two strategies.
Usually no days! I just take it out of the fridge, refresh it and use the result in the bread. If it has been in the fridge for a really long time, I might do it one or (rarely) two extra times first.
I do mine at this scale because I often need more to use in breads, but it's really just a ratio, scaling it up and down while keeping the ratio the same doesn't change anything at all.
I don't think scaling down is likely to limit acidity, unless that's because it forces you to refresh it more often. I do believe that using only 50% starter relative to flour and water will reduce acidity, because it means you carry over far less acid at each refreshment (that's one reason the 5% overnight one reduces it even further).
I am coming back to this post, as I have started to fear that limited kitchen time due to a RTO might impact the recipes I make with fresh levain. I have two questions:
1. When making dough with the slow levain, you still use the same amount, correct? Ie. 100 g of the 4-6 h = 100 g of the 12-14 h when used in a recipe?
2. Are there any in between formulas? Like for something I could feed at 8 am before work to be able to use maybe 10 hours later? Like 10:10:1 or 8:8:1?
1. The slow/fast is just a timing thing, the end result is functionally identical, so yes, the same amount.
2. Sure, those are both pretty similar and I think you should get an ~8h proof. Another option is to hold a just-refreshed levain in the fridge and adjust for its temperature in the dough. (I think you can get away with up to 12h without losing any potency.)
Ha! Sorry--return to office. No date yet, but I'm already mentally preparing for all the potential changes to my work-from-home dough timings.
It is actually the recipes where I am already doing a 12-h fridge hold (Detroit, al taglio) that I am concerned about. I usually put the levain in the fridge overnight, and then make the dough mid-morning. Office lyfe could mean I would need to put it in the fridge for at least 18-22 h. That's too long, I assume?
Ideally it would be 12h or less. It'll still work, but run slower. This week I was in a rush and used 2-day old starter from the fridge. The dough took about 1.5x as long to proof as a result.
Oh! Ok ok, good to know. And this period is after the folds? E.g. With Detroit dough, in that last window of waiting for it to double after the folds it took 1.5x longer? This is more workable for me, theoretically, if I'm putting the dough together in the like 6-h window between work and bedtime.
... ~11-12 hours! Just like the 1:20:20?! And my apt is around 73-75 F. I never measure flour or water temperature, so I similarly didn't here. Water, flour, levain would all have been at that temp to start. Thoughts as to why the timing was similar? I will try 1:8:8 soon.
Hi! Regarding reactivating your fresh starter. As a beginner who has NEVER worked with starter I want to make sure I understand your instructions correctly. After the first 12-24 hours when you "transfer" some of the starter into fresh water and flour..what do you do with the remaining starter? Throw it out? Am I creating "fresh" starter from each sample until it takes less than 8 hours to triple in volume and using that last batch as my primary baking starter? OR do I keep the primary starter, and each starter I am sampling with fresh water and flour is merely an indicator of when the main batch is ready to use?
Do I never need to feed the initial starter again if I am keeping it in the meantime? Are the "testers" I am feeding to see how long it takes to increase in volume to be thrown away?
Finally, for the dried yeast packet back-up how should I store it until it is ready to be used? Can I freeze it? Thank you.
Cheryl - Since you have a portion of my own starter, you should use recipe #1 above, and you should find that the starter doubles in less than 6h (I fed mine yesterday and it took 3h!) You won't need to work to get it to a similar state.
.
As for your questions: the starter is a culture that you use each time to make a new batch of culture. You can save any leftover starter in the fridge as a backup or as "discard" to use in other recipes, but you won't return to it once the next one you make has expanded. It's a little like a packet of seeds. Once the seeds have sprouted, flowered, and formed new seeds, you don't need to go back to the original packet of seeds again.
.
As for the dried one, store it in a jar or sealed bag in the fridge for best keeping.
Sue - by "making" do you mean "refreshing"? If so, then yes, but a whole grain one is going to move more quickly (though it will expand less, since the gluten is more compromised). I personally don't do whole grain starters, because I know that a refined-flour one will leaven a whole grain dough just fine. (I do add 10-20% rye to my usual feed every once in awhile, to give the starter a little treat.)
Maybe a little off-topic, but can you give me some kind of idea for a fridge based starter v countertop since I am in Peru (last week it was over 90 every day dry, this week its 80s and damp.)
Not off topic at all. I think you are better off most of the time using the fast approach, with cold water to keep the temperature of the starter on the low side (65?), so that it doubles in the usual 4-6h time frame. As long as it doesn't move too fast and you move it to the fridge at the point that it is about doubled, it will be no different than one proofed in more temperate conditions.
Thank you for the super clear post! A little late to this but wondering whether using colder water is advisable for slowing fermentation? As opposed to adjusting the ratio of culture to added water/flour, as you do here. I've done the former a whole bunch without really considering how it's impacting the resulting levain, but wondering now whether I'm doing my bakes a disservice somehow (e.g., taste, rise, etc.)
Sam - Colder water is another way to modulate fermentation, but the problem with it is that if ambient temperatures are high and the proof time is long enough, the culture will warm up to overcome the lower starting temperature. So that strategy is better for short fermentations, like the fast one I mention above. For longer ones, you are better off lowering the amount of inoculum.
That makes perfect sense. Particularly in light of the chilly Pacific Northwestern air that I contend with. Thank you!
thanks for this--the DDT formula is super helpful.
Question about amounts. It looks like you maintain a much larger quantity of starter than I do. It'd be great if you could walk us through why one might prefer storing (and feeding) a small amount vs a larger amount of starter.
You start with 75g (Do you store that much "asleep" in your fridge?). I usually store, oh, about 40 g. I peel off about 15 g for my first feeding out of the fridge and save the rest for crackers. then I build for a couple days, feeding 2x a day. at each feed I discard about half the starter and feed flour and water 1:1:1. So my starter jar is small and never has much more than 40 g starter in it.
I used to store more-- about a cup and a half of starter in a pint mason jar (this is from before I got my scale!). I have come to prefer this not just to save flour, but also because it seems to keep the acidity under better control.
I'd love to understand better the differences between these two strategies.
ps how many days do you feed your starter at room temperature before mixing up the levain and starting a bake?
Usually no days! I just take it out of the fridge, refresh it and use the result in the bread. If it has been in the fridge for a really long time, I might do it one or (rarely) two extra times first.
I do mine at this scale because I often need more to use in breads, but it's really just a ratio, scaling it up and down while keeping the ratio the same doesn't change anything at all.
I don't think scaling down is likely to limit acidity, unless that's because it forces you to refresh it more often. I do believe that using only 50% starter relative to flour and water will reduce acidity, because it means you carry over far less acid at each refreshment (that's one reason the 5% overnight one reduces it even further).
thanks! I'm a small scale operation, baking just for me and a friend or two
I am coming back to this post, as I have started to fear that limited kitchen time due to a RTO might impact the recipes I make with fresh levain. I have two questions:
1. When making dough with the slow levain, you still use the same amount, correct? Ie. 100 g of the 4-6 h = 100 g of the 12-14 h when used in a recipe?
2. Are there any in between formulas? Like for something I could feed at 8 am before work to be able to use maybe 10 hours later? Like 10:10:1 or 8:8:1?
Which RTO do you mean here? (https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/RTO) ;)
1. The slow/fast is just a timing thing, the end result is functionally identical, so yes, the same amount.
2. Sure, those are both pretty similar and I think you should get an ~8h proof. Another option is to hold a just-refreshed levain in the fridge and adjust for its temperature in the dough. (I think you can get away with up to 12h without losing any potency.)
Ha! Sorry--return to office. No date yet, but I'm already mentally preparing for all the potential changes to my work-from-home dough timings.
It is actually the recipes where I am already doing a 12-h fridge hold (Detroit, al taglio) that I am concerned about. I usually put the levain in the fridge overnight, and then make the dough mid-morning. Office lyfe could mean I would need to put it in the fridge for at least 18-22 h. That's too long, I assume?
Ideally it would be 12h or less. It'll still work, but run slower. This week I was in a rush and used 2-day old starter from the fridge. The dough took about 1.5x as long to proof as a result.
Oh! Ok ok, good to know. And this period is after the folds? E.g. With Detroit dough, in that last window of waiting for it to double after the folds it took 1.5x longer? This is more workable for me, theoretically, if I'm putting the dough together in the like 6-h window between work and bedtime.
I am going to time a 1:10:10 batch today for sh*ts and giggles to see how long it takes.
send back data!
... ~11-12 hours! Just like the 1:20:20?! And my apt is around 73-75 F. I never measure flour or water temperature, so I similarly didn't here. Water, flour, levain would all have been at that temp to start. Thoughts as to why the timing was similar? I will try 1:8:8 soon.
And 1:8:8 took ~8 hours.
Hi! Regarding reactivating your fresh starter. As a beginner who has NEVER worked with starter I want to make sure I understand your instructions correctly. After the first 12-24 hours when you "transfer" some of the starter into fresh water and flour..what do you do with the remaining starter? Throw it out? Am I creating "fresh" starter from each sample until it takes less than 8 hours to triple in volume and using that last batch as my primary baking starter? OR do I keep the primary starter, and each starter I am sampling with fresh water and flour is merely an indicator of when the main batch is ready to use?
Do I never need to feed the initial starter again if I am keeping it in the meantime? Are the "testers" I am feeding to see how long it takes to increase in volume to be thrown away?
Finally, for the dried yeast packet back-up how should I store it until it is ready to be used? Can I freeze it? Thank you.
Cheryl - Since you have a portion of my own starter, you should use recipe #1 above, and you should find that the starter doubles in less than 6h (I fed mine yesterday and it took 3h!) You won't need to work to get it to a similar state.
.
As for your questions: the starter is a culture that you use each time to make a new batch of culture. You can save any leftover starter in the fridge as a backup or as "discard" to use in other recipes, but you won't return to it once the next one you make has expanded. It's a little like a packet of seeds. Once the seeds have sprouted, flowered, and formed new seeds, you don't need to go back to the original packet of seeds again.
.
As for the dried one, store it in a jar or sealed bag in the fridge for best keeping.
I am just re-reading this! Do you use similar timing when you are making a whole wheat flour starter?
Sue - by "making" do you mean "refreshing"? If so, then yes, but a whole grain one is going to move more quickly (though it will expand less, since the gluten is more compromised). I personally don't do whole grain starters, because I know that a refined-flour one will leaven a whole grain dough just fine. (I do add 10-20% rye to my usual feed every once in awhile, to give the starter a little treat.)
Ah that was my next question, whether you use your white flour starter for your whole wheat loaves! Thank you for your prompt reply!