Can you explain the differences between diastatic malt powder, non-diastatic malt powder, barley malt syrup, dry light malt powder, and malted milk powder? How are they used and what to they do? I was going to try your NY bagel recipe on ATK, which uses malt syrup (or molasses as a sub). I don’t have malt syrup, so I commented on that recipe asking if I could use either diastatic or non-diastatic malt powder in its place. I got a response that the recipe uses non-diastatic malt syrup so I should be able to use malt powder in its place. Now reading your post, I don’t know if they meant non-diastatic malt powder or dry light malt powder. Not like I know the difference between the two anyway, but I’d like to understand what they each are and what they do to food. I have both diastatic and non-diastatic malt powder, which I tasted, and they taste the same, don’t know why, but I expected them to taste different 🤷♀️ The array of ingredients with similar names is very confusing.
Tanya - Malted milk powder is made from milk; it's for making malt balls and malted drinks, and not useful for breads. Malt syrup and light malt are sugars made from malted barley, and both are NON-diastatic; they are used for sweetening and flavoring, and in the case of bagels and their bath also giving the exterior a glossy sheen. Diastatic malt is an enzyme made from malted barley that helps break down starches into sugars, and is good for making sure long-fermented breads have enough sugar for browning; which is why it is here. Both diastatic and non-diastatic malt are good to use here, but not essential. Does that help?
Thanks, starting to make more sense... so is non-diastatic malt powder also an enzyme that breaks down starches into sugars? If they do the same thing, what’s the point of having both? If not, what’s the difference between the two? When you say both are good to be used here, do you mean interchangeably? Or do you mean the non-diastatic can be used in place of the syrup?
No. Diastatic is the enzyme one, that's what the word refers to (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diastase). Non-diastatic malt is some form of malt sugar. This recipe calls for both because each one serves a different purpose.
Ah ok this makes more sense. So sounds like I can use the non-diastatic malt powder in place of the malt syrup. This must be the light malt powder you refer to.. sorry just connecting the dots as I type. So can this non-diastatic malt powder also be used in the bath in place of the syrup? Or should that still be the molasses sub?
Have you tried another fridge rest after shaping to facilitate timing? This recipe is tough for same-day breakfast bagels; it looks like 3-4.5 hrs. from pulling from fridge to completion. I often shape the day before, fridge rest overnight, and boil/bake the next morning as in Nancy Silverton's sourdough bagel recipe (she does add instant yeast, though). Looking forward to trying these!
Mark - I like the bulk cold retard because it takes up much less room in the fridge. I've never tested a shaped bulk with these, though it has been on my list. Do you want to do it for us all? If it works, I'll add it to the recipe. (You could even do half and half if you wanted to compare results.)
😁Just made stiff starter, but probably can’t get to dough today! Just to clarify: are you suggesting a second retarding after shaping into rings (Step 9) or shaping and retarding after bulk rise (Step 5)...in other words 1 or 2 cold ferments?
Shaping bagels now...would you let them rise for 30-90 minutes after shaping before I put in fridge or just shape and straight to fridge? Then check for float test tomorrow morning before boiling?
a general chemistry question: what does initially leaving the salt out of the dough do? (here, and in other recipes)
i learned a simple no-knead sourdough loaf recipe from a friend, and it makes marvelous breads. salt is mixed into levain with water, and flour after. i have made many "the Loaf" loaves, and find, in my inexperienced eye, them to be extremely similar. what's going on with the salt?
Emily - that's what known as an "autolyse", and it serves two purposes. Salt is hygroscopic, meaning it has a strong affinity for water. It also inhibits enzymes. Holding back salt at the beginning of mixing allows the flour to hydrate fully (which makes mixing by hand much easier—no dry flour pockets). And it lets enzymes in the flour work to form gluten, which gives the bread structure without kneading. It's not necessarily essential in every recipe for both reasons, but its something I tend to use always, since it cannot hurt, and at the very least it makes getting the dough mixed easy.
these are delightful! i trade breads for cured manure compost for my garden and plan to make a few more batches straight away! -- any reason not to reuse the "bath water"? (if kept refrigerated btwn uses)
On my second run through this recipe already this week and I am loving it! First time making bagels and it's been a total success. Thank you!
What part of the recipe would you focus on to reduce the sourness further? I live in a tropical climate (30c / 85f) so I was thinking either reducing the bulk time or reducing some of the rising times after shaping?
Or something with the levain? Less levain? Add the levain earlier before it doubles?
Colin - I guess reduce the bulk slightly? I don't think using the levain much earlier will help, I'm going to guess that it's doubling faster in that heat anyway.
When refreshing the stiff starter, can we keep refreshing the 2:1:1 refreshed version, or do we have to go back to refresh the converted stiff starter?
Not exactly sure what you mean, but once you have a stiff one, you treat it the same as a liquid one. Refresh, use what you need for a dough, refresh the remainder, lather, rinse, repeat. You _can't_ keep the sweet one going though, it gets sour if you store it for long.
Hi Andrew, do you think kansui (aka lye water) would be an effective replacement for sodium carbonate in the bath? It's a potassium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate solution typically used to make ramen noodles, so I'm curious to see how it'd affect the coloring in bagels.
Thanks for this recipe! Baking soda has worked great in my previous bakes — I just saw the bottle of kansui in my cupboard and got the itch to experiment.
My Food Processor leaked fairly substantially when I first mixed the dough. Is there a sequence of steps to avoid leaking - like pouring half the water in gradually as it blends?
Love this recipe! One of the easiest bagel recipes I know of (especially when it comes to mixing/kneading) and has great results. I forgot that it required a stiff starter when I went to make it again this morning so I just did some math and used my liquid starter. Worked great! I might experiment with shaping the night before next time because I prefer morning bagels to lunchtime bagels. Thanks Andrew!
I'm making my first batch today, in hopeful anticipation of having them for New Years! Wonder if anybody other than @MarkCohen has made them slightly smaller, thereby yielding a greater quantity, and if so, did that turn out OK?
Hi, I’ve made 2 batches of your bagel recipe- love it!
The bagels have been cracking in the oven- specifically in the center ring area. Maybe 1/2-1” crack per bagel, some don't have any cracks. The cracks aren’t big, but it seems like there is expansion that is happening that the crust can’t contain.
A couple of specifics- I’vei been following the timing/temp in the recipe. The bagels float immediately in the bath, so I don’t think that it is an underproofing issue. I’ve been hand mixing/kneading as I don’t have access to a good stand mixer or large enough food processor. I’ve been mixing/kneading for 10-15 minutes.
I’m not using a particularly high protein bread flour, but it is bread flour (mix of hard red turkey with Sonoran white).
Thinking that mixing and flour selection are the main issues. Not developing the gluten enough? Do you have other thoughts as to why the cracking is happening?
Zach - Glad you like! It's hard to say why you are seeing cracking, but I'd guess it is the flour swap. It sounds like you are using a blend of higher extraction flours, which will require more water to get a comparable dough texture. Can't say how much, but +5% is probably a good start.
Hi Andrew - just made these and they look incredible. Thank you so much!! They have quite a few brown spots on them - could this be because I didn’t de-gas them enough when shaping them? Thanks!
Quick question: I noticed that the quantities/weight in the PDF version is different than the ones in this post. Which one should we be using?
sorry, Jeff, I just looked and could not find the discrepancies. Can you tell me which numbers look different?
Sure, the ingredients that I've found different are as follows.
For the Sweet Levain, the printed PDF has 80g water, 120g 50% hydration starter.
For the Dough, the printed PDF has 380g high gluten or bread flour, 5g diastatic malt powder, 240g cool water, 5g barley malt syrup.
The bath calls for 4 quarts water in the PDF version and no mention of sodium carbonate or lye
Fixed it. That was the older version of the PDF. The new link is identical to this one. Thanks for catching that.
Can you explain the differences between diastatic malt powder, non-diastatic malt powder, barley malt syrup, dry light malt powder, and malted milk powder? How are they used and what to they do? I was going to try your NY bagel recipe on ATK, which uses malt syrup (or molasses as a sub). I don’t have malt syrup, so I commented on that recipe asking if I could use either diastatic or non-diastatic malt powder in its place. I got a response that the recipe uses non-diastatic malt syrup so I should be able to use malt powder in its place. Now reading your post, I don’t know if they meant non-diastatic malt powder or dry light malt powder. Not like I know the difference between the two anyway, but I’d like to understand what they each are and what they do to food. I have both diastatic and non-diastatic malt powder, which I tasted, and they taste the same, don’t know why, but I expected them to taste different 🤷♀️ The array of ingredients with similar names is very confusing.
Tanya - Malted milk powder is made from milk; it's for making malt balls and malted drinks, and not useful for breads. Malt syrup and light malt are sugars made from malted barley, and both are NON-diastatic; they are used for sweetening and flavoring, and in the case of bagels and their bath also giving the exterior a glossy sheen. Diastatic malt is an enzyme made from malted barley that helps break down starches into sugars, and is good for making sure long-fermented breads have enough sugar for browning; which is why it is here. Both diastatic and non-diastatic malt are good to use here, but not essential. Does that help?
Thanks, starting to make more sense... so is non-diastatic malt powder also an enzyme that breaks down starches into sugars? If they do the same thing, what’s the point of having both? If not, what’s the difference between the two? When you say both are good to be used here, do you mean interchangeably? Or do you mean the non-diastatic can be used in place of the syrup?
No. Diastatic is the enzyme one, that's what the word refers to (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diastase). Non-diastatic malt is some form of malt sugar. This recipe calls for both because each one serves a different purpose.
Ah ok this makes more sense. So sounds like I can use the non-diastatic malt powder in place of the malt syrup. This must be the light malt powder you refer to.. sorry just connecting the dots as I type. So can this non-diastatic malt powder also be used in the bath in place of the syrup? Or should that still be the molasses sub?
I'd use molasses. But you can find barley malt syrup at most supermarkets!
Andrew, thank you for this! Can maltose be substituted for the barley malt syrup?
It _could_ but it won't have the toasted, "malty" flavor of malt syrup, it will just be sweet.
Thank you, Andrew. Understood.
Have you tried another fridge rest after shaping to facilitate timing? This recipe is tough for same-day breakfast bagels; it looks like 3-4.5 hrs. from pulling from fridge to completion. I often shape the day before, fridge rest overnight, and boil/bake the next morning as in Nancy Silverton's sourdough bagel recipe (she does add instant yeast, though). Looking forward to trying these!
Mark - I like the bulk cold retard because it takes up much less room in the fridge. I've never tested a shaped bulk with these, though it has been on my list. Do you want to do it for us all? If it works, I'll add it to the recipe. (You could even do half and half if you wanted to compare results.)
Sounds good! I’ll try today, but it may be next week
no rush!
😁Just made stiff starter, but probably can’t get to dough today! Just to clarify: are you suggesting a second retarding after shaping into rings (Step 9) or shaping and retarding after bulk rise (Step 5)...in other words 1 or 2 cold ferments?
No, just the one retard. Shape/preshape the bagels before you put them into the fridge the night before.
Shaping bagels now...would you let them rise for 30-90 minutes after shaping before I put in fridge or just shape and straight to fridge? Then check for float test tomorrow morning before boiling?
a general chemistry question: what does initially leaving the salt out of the dough do? (here, and in other recipes)
i learned a simple no-knead sourdough loaf recipe from a friend, and it makes marvelous breads. salt is mixed into levain with water, and flour after. i have made many "the Loaf" loaves, and find, in my inexperienced eye, them to be extremely similar. what's going on with the salt?
thanks!
Emily - that's what known as an "autolyse", and it serves two purposes. Salt is hygroscopic, meaning it has a strong affinity for water. It also inhibits enzymes. Holding back salt at the beginning of mixing allows the flour to hydrate fully (which makes mixing by hand much easier—no dry flour pockets). And it lets enzymes in the flour work to form gluten, which gives the bread structure without kneading. It's not necessarily essential in every recipe for both reasons, but its something I tend to use always, since it cannot hurt, and at the very least it makes getting the dough mixed easy.
these are delightful! i trade breads for cured manure compost for my garden and plan to make a few more batches straight away! -- any reason not to reuse the "bath water"? (if kept refrigerated btwn uses)
Emily - I think that would be fine, especially if there wasn't too much time between uses.
On my second run through this recipe already this week and I am loving it! First time making bagels and it's been a total success. Thank you!
What part of the recipe would you focus on to reduce the sourness further? I live in a tropical climate (30c / 85f) so I was thinking either reducing the bulk time or reducing some of the rising times after shaping?
Or something with the levain? Less levain? Add the levain earlier before it doubles?
Colin - I guess reduce the bulk slightly? I don't think using the levain much earlier will help, I'm going to guess that it's doubling faster in that heat anyway.
Thanks I'll give that a try today. (Third time through the recipe this week, my kids won't stop eating these bagels!)
When refreshing the stiff starter, can we keep refreshing the 2:1:1 refreshed version, or do we have to go back to refresh the converted stiff starter?
Not exactly sure what you mean, but once you have a stiff one, you treat it the same as a liquid one. Refresh, use what you need for a dough, refresh the remainder, lather, rinse, repeat. You _can't_ keep the sweet one going though, it gets sour if you store it for long.
I think I understand, but correct me if I'm wrong: refresh every time with 150g flour, 75g water, and 75g stiff starter.
That's right! Or at whatever scale makes the most sense for the recipes you are doing.
Hi Andrew, do you think kansui (aka lye water) would be an effective replacement for sodium carbonate in the bath? It's a potassium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate solution typically used to make ramen noodles, so I'm curious to see how it'd affect the coloring in bagels.
Thanks for this recipe! Baking soda has worked great in my previous bakes — I just saw the bottle of kansui in my cupboard and got the itch to experiment.
It would be interesting to try, yes. Not sure if there would be any advantage, but it should work. Let me know if you do!
My Food Processor leaked fairly substantially when I first mixed the dough. Is there a sequence of steps to avoid leaking - like pouring half the water in gradually as it blends?
Love this recipe! One of the easiest bagel recipes I know of (especially when it comes to mixing/kneading) and has great results. I forgot that it required a stiff starter when I went to make it again this morning so I just did some math and used my liquid starter. Worked great! I might experiment with shaping the night before next time because I prefer morning bagels to lunchtime bagels. Thanks Andrew!
Music to my ears!
I'm making my first batch today, in hopeful anticipation of having them for New Years! Wonder if anybody other than @MarkCohen has made them slightly smaller, thereby yielding a greater quantity, and if so, did that turn out OK?
Hi, I’ve made 2 batches of your bagel recipe- love it!
The bagels have been cracking in the oven- specifically in the center ring area. Maybe 1/2-1” crack per bagel, some don't have any cracks. The cracks aren’t big, but it seems like there is expansion that is happening that the crust can’t contain.
A couple of specifics- I’vei been following the timing/temp in the recipe. The bagels float immediately in the bath, so I don’t think that it is an underproofing issue. I’ve been hand mixing/kneading as I don’t have access to a good stand mixer or large enough food processor. I’ve been mixing/kneading for 10-15 minutes.
I’m not using a particularly high protein bread flour, but it is bread flour (mix of hard red turkey with Sonoran white).
Thinking that mixing and flour selection are the main issues. Not developing the gluten enough? Do you have other thoughts as to why the cracking is happening?
Thanks!
Zach - Glad you like! It's hard to say why you are seeing cracking, but I'd guess it is the flour swap. It sounds like you are using a blend of higher extraction flours, which will require more water to get a comparable dough texture. Can't say how much, but +5% is probably a good start.
Hi Andrew - just made these and they look incredible. Thank you so much!! They have quite a few brown spots on them - could this be because I didn’t de-gas them enough when shaping them? Thanks!
Hmm, not sure. Did you use diastatic malt?
I did! The crumb was incredible and the flavor was insane. They were so good, just had dark spots from bubbles, not that typical shiny bagel exterior.