LOVE the "homeopathic" amount comment, andrew. thanks for the perfect description and laugh. i am baking this tomorrow! or maybe later today.............your efforts are appreciated.
I'm enjoying testing the various versions for the Discard English Muffin Loaf recipe. But I can't locate Version 3 (no yeast, no proof time, linked post titled "Subscriber Test Recipe" published on 5/26/22). I believe the PDF embedded in the archived post for Version 3 only points to the PDF of Version 4 "The Final Cut" posted today, 10/26/22. What am I doing wrong? I'm trying to view Version 3. Thanks.
Thank you for restoring Discard Sourdough version 3. The posted PDF still includes yeast in the directions and ingredients list. Should any mention of yeast simply be ignored? Sorry to bother.
Douglas - I've now lost track of the original version 3 document, but if you really want to make it, leave off the yeast, and bake the loaf as soon as the oven comes to temperature (heat the oven after you fill the pan).
I've actually had a question about this recipe, having made (and greatly enjoyed) the yeast-less Version Three numerous times. I've found, as you note, that I get a better rise and more open crumb when using fresh levain vs older discard. Do you have a sense of why that is, though? The three explanations I could think of are:
1) The yeast in fresh levain is more active (unlikely, I think, since the version I made didn't include a rising step)
2) Increased acidity in discard leading to weaker gluten structure in the loaf
3) Enzymatic breakdown of gluten during the the time that discard hangs out in the fridge
Also: I saw somewhere that your background is in chemistry. I'm a biochem PhD student — any recommendations for good resources that address bread/gluten/baking at a molecular/chemical level?
Andrew may have more sources, but Bread Science by Emily Buehler is great. I think there’s a newer edition out recently. There have also been a couple sciencey bread/sourdough books out recently but I haven’t paid much attention, tbh.
Two thoughts to add - I have started keeping all my discard in the freezer so it’s “fresher” for applications like this because I find the lower acid accumulation and gluten/starch breakdown makes up for any potential negative effects of multiple freeze-thaws. I just defrost the whole container in the fridge, use what I need, and then refreeze the rest immediately. Also your theory 1 is probably more valid than you think because fresher discard will not be as far down in the whole growth plateau (have you ever taken microbiology? Or maybe you grow bacteria or yeast for your research? There’s that exponential phase and then plateau when all nutrients are depleted), and so less yeast have died off. While there may not be a rise step prior to baking, that time between when you put the pan in the oven to when the yeast die off at the “thermal death point” is enough time that the yeast get a proliferative burst and emit a bit more carbon dioxide, which is what “oven spring” is attributed to, with another component being existing trapped gas expanding in the heat. But more active yeast definitely adds something! Best wishes from a fellow bread-baking scientist =)
Thanks for sharing both thoughts! The idea of freezing discard is excellent. I might try freezing in aliquots (100 g?) to reduce freeze thawing.
You make a good point about my first hypothesis. Especially with the amount of discard in this recipe, that last burst of activity in the oven could be fairly substantial. I work with both bacteria and yeast in my research, so thinking about exponential/stationary/death phase and doubling time is very much second nature :)
Ha, then you probably know way more than me about bacterial/yeast growth kinetics, it’s been awhile since I’ve cultured bacteria in the lab. I do cell culture and animal models; I’ve always likened keeping a sourdough starter to splitting/passaging cells =D. (p.s. You know you’re a scientist when you use the word aliquot in normal life tasks! A truly under-appreciated word).
To be honest, I'd forgotten about this until just now — thanks for the reminder! I just froze some discard in 30g portions (what comfortably fit into the spaces of an ice cube tray). I'd imagine that they'd thaw in the fridge overnight, but your guess is as good as mine for this one.
This sounds awesome. I only had tried the first version and my results were positive (just found my word document!) I had added cheese and it turned out to be a heavy Vollkorn-type bread; mostly because my starter gets fed with freshly milled whole grain. So, my version was 50% whole grain! I will do this again, but minus the yeast. I don't have any and since I will have to build a levain anyway, I assume I don't really need it. This is kinda like giving my starter a snack in the morning before adding him to my dough. I usually feed 5g starter with 15g water & 20g flour in the evening, and in the morning, I feed the whole thing again with 15g water & 20g flour & a 1/2 tsp milled malted barley from the homebrew store. After the snack, he takes 2 hours to dome and triple in size; that's when I add him to my autolyze. So, following your last recipe, I'm thinking if I let the dough (minus the yeast) sit for 2 hours in the pan, it should rise enough on its own. I also put my pan breads inside the Challenger for a crustier crust and extra steam. The only thing different I've be doing in the past is sprinkling the pan with whole teff seeds after buttering it. :) THAT makes a good crust too. But I'll use cornmeal this time. I'll let you know how it turns out. Today I'll make your Gingerbread cake as per request of my husband. ;) Gotta keep him happy!
eating and typing. i did not try earlier versions but this was perfectly instructed and came out looking and tasting perfect! what a great use of discard, for the future. i made the levain last night. i love the crunch of the exterior cornmeal.
1) I'm eager to try the discard granola recipe, as I have a bunch of discard that's been in my freezer for quite awhile, awaiting a suitable use. I recall it coming through earlier this year, but neglected to take action.
2) I no longer accumulate sourdough discard. After reading Mark Bittman's recent bread book, I've modified my usual method and use all but about 5 - 10 grams of my starter in my current bake. This way, I never have excess starter to "discard" into a plastic bag in my freezer.
Jeff - I don't like to use (up) such a high percentage of starter, for 2 reasons:
1) there is a risk that I'll *literally* discard it, since it's barely a residue in the bottom of the container and I don't always feed it right away after I offload what I need for the recipe.
2) I generally use 50% inoculation for each feeding, meaning if I need 300g of levain, I need 150g of starter. Which means I need to *save* at least that much each time I make more.
In any case, for any recipe that calls for "discard", you can just *make* levain and use that instead.
It illustrates the different needs for different types of bakers. I typically bake a loaf every five days or so, to feed my wife and me. So, I keep 110 g of starter in the fridge. When I use almost all of it, that's about 100 g. I use that in my breads that are usually 510 g of flour and 410 g of water. Part of the initial dough creation routine is to refresh the starter with 55 g of water and 55 g of rye flour.
If, like I did this morning, I want to make two loaves at a time, I just reduce the amount of starter to 50 g for each, still using up almost all the starter. The loaves may take a little longer to be ready for action, but there's enough variability due to temperature in my kitchen that I don't notice.
You're running a little test kitchen, so I can see how your needs would be very different. And I totally get the fear of accidentally using all the starter. The stuff of nightmares!
I've been pondering expanding my bread making to a small subscription service, to spread the love beyond my house. I can see how my starter routine would change under those circumstances. But that's for another conversation...
This used up all but a tiny bit of the accumulation of discard in the fridge. It turned out great other than not having a ton of flavor as might be expected with an English muffin. With homemade raspberry jam, it was a wonderful breakfast. I did use bloody butcher cornmeal which added some fun crunch and color.
Made the new and improved version today, with 50 g Einkorn (in the levain) and steam pan - my Dutch oven is too small. The bread turned out great, the best English muffin bread I have made so far - I tried several recipes in the past.
Unsurprisingly, it tastes like something in between soda bread and regular bread! Really nice texture but I think I’d use a smaller pan next time because it was a little flat.
I also don’t think I’d do the cornmeal next time, it was a little TOO crunchy and makes a huge mess 😄
I love English muffins and am always looking for recipes that use surplus sourdough. I baked this bread today - we had it with bacon and eggs (and jam) and later, as a snack, with cheese and cucumber. We liked it a lot!
I found it very helpful that you specified in the ingredient list the best milk temperature for cold or room temperature starter. Since my Dutch oven would not hold a loaf pan, I baked it without one, but with steam.
I've made this several times and is always delicious. But please help me clarify... In the bakers ratios in the overall formula, there is 111% for levain and 50% for preferment flour. How does this compute to the 400g of discard in the following recipe?
that's a now-corrected typo, it should have said 100% levain. There is 400g flour overall and 400g of discard or levain. I've moved away from even highlighting the levain %, because it is less useful or precise than PFF
I made this bread now for the third time, always substituting 10% of the white flour with whole grain, today with local Somali corn flour. It always turns out great, and we love it!
Late to the party here, but wanted to mention that I baked this today to use up a bunch of 100% rye starter discard. I wasn't too sure what to expect, but when used with 200g KA Lancelot HG flour, I was really surprised at the results. I love "English muffin" breads, ever since my first take on them from an OLD bread book I've had since the '80s (Clayton); I don't bake them that often these days, since I have so little resistance to eating the whole damn loaf in 2 days (along with a few sticks of butter). But the 100% rye discard really added so much flavor. Love it.
LOVE the "homeopathic" amount comment, andrew. thanks for the perfect description and laugh. i am baking this tomorrow! or maybe later today.............your efforts are appreciated.
thanks, Jude. It reminds me of those recipes for "extra" dry martinis, where you just wave the open bottle of vermouth near the cocktail shaker.
I'm enjoying testing the various versions for the Discard English Muffin Loaf recipe. But I can't locate Version 3 (no yeast, no proof time, linked post titled "Subscriber Test Recipe" published on 5/26/22). I believe the PDF embedded in the archived post for Version 3 only points to the PDF of Version 4 "The Final Cut" posted today, 10/26/22. What am I doing wrong? I'm trying to view Version 3. Thanks.
I think it might have gotten deleted as I was doing some house cleaning. I restored it just now.
Thank you for restoring Discard Sourdough version 3. The posted PDF still includes yeast in the directions and ingredients list. Should any mention of yeast simply be ignored? Sorry to bother.
Douglas - I've now lost track of the original version 3 document, but if you really want to make it, leave off the yeast, and bake the loaf as soon as the oven comes to temperature (heat the oven after you fill the pan).
Got it. Thank you very much!
I've actually had a question about this recipe, having made (and greatly enjoyed) the yeast-less Version Three numerous times. I've found, as you note, that I get a better rise and more open crumb when using fresh levain vs older discard. Do you have a sense of why that is, though? The three explanations I could think of are:
1) The yeast in fresh levain is more active (unlikely, I think, since the version I made didn't include a rising step)
2) Increased acidity in discard leading to weaker gluten structure in the loaf
3) Enzymatic breakdown of gluten during the the time that discard hangs out in the fridge
Also: I saw somewhere that your background is in chemistry. I'm a biochem PhD student — any recommendations for good resources that address bread/gluten/baking at a molecular/chemical level?
Andrew may have more sources, but Bread Science by Emily Buehler is great. I think there’s a newer edition out recently. There have also been a couple sciencey bread/sourdough books out recently but I haven’t paid much attention, tbh.
Two thoughts to add - I have started keeping all my discard in the freezer so it’s “fresher” for applications like this because I find the lower acid accumulation and gluten/starch breakdown makes up for any potential negative effects of multiple freeze-thaws. I just defrost the whole container in the fridge, use what I need, and then refreeze the rest immediately. Also your theory 1 is probably more valid than you think because fresher discard will not be as far down in the whole growth plateau (have you ever taken microbiology? Or maybe you grow bacteria or yeast for your research? There’s that exponential phase and then plateau when all nutrients are depleted), and so less yeast have died off. While there may not be a rise step prior to baking, that time between when you put the pan in the oven to when the yeast die off at the “thermal death point” is enough time that the yeast get a proliferative burst and emit a bit more carbon dioxide, which is what “oven spring” is attributed to, with another component being existing trapped gas expanding in the heat. But more active yeast definitely adds something! Best wishes from a fellow bread-baking scientist =)
Thanks for sharing both thoughts! The idea of freezing discard is excellent. I might try freezing in aliquots (100 g?) to reduce freeze thawing.
You make a good point about my first hypothesis. Especially with the amount of discard in this recipe, that last burst of activity in the oven could be fairly substantial. I work with both bacteria and yeast in my research, so thinking about exponential/stationary/death phase and doubling time is very much second nature :)
Ha, then you probably know way more than me about bacterial/yeast growth kinetics, it’s been awhile since I’ve cultured bacteria in the lab. I do cell culture and animal models; I’ve always likened keeping a sourdough starter to splitting/passaging cells =D. (p.s. You know you’re a scientist when you use the word aliquot in normal life tasks! A truly under-appreciated word).
This is a great idea! About how long does it take to thaw 100g of discard?
To be honest, I'd forgotten about this until just now — thanks for the reminder! I just froze some discard in 30g portions (what comfortably fit into the spaces of an ice cube tray). I'd imagine that they'd thaw in the fridge overnight, but your guess is as good as mine for this one.
Ice cube tray is a great idea!
This sounds awesome. I only had tried the first version and my results were positive (just found my word document!) I had added cheese and it turned out to be a heavy Vollkorn-type bread; mostly because my starter gets fed with freshly milled whole grain. So, my version was 50% whole grain! I will do this again, but minus the yeast. I don't have any and since I will have to build a levain anyway, I assume I don't really need it. This is kinda like giving my starter a snack in the morning before adding him to my dough. I usually feed 5g starter with 15g water & 20g flour in the evening, and in the morning, I feed the whole thing again with 15g water & 20g flour & a 1/2 tsp milled malted barley from the homebrew store. After the snack, he takes 2 hours to dome and triple in size; that's when I add him to my autolyze. So, following your last recipe, I'm thinking if I let the dough (minus the yeast) sit for 2 hours in the pan, it should rise enough on its own. I also put my pan breads inside the Challenger for a crustier crust and extra steam. The only thing different I've be doing in the past is sprinkling the pan with whole teff seeds after buttering it. :) THAT makes a good crust too. But I'll use cornmeal this time. I'll let you know how it turns out. Today I'll make your Gingerbread cake as per request of my husband. ;) Gotta keep him happy!
eating and typing. i did not try earlier versions but this was perfectly instructed and came out looking and tasting perfect! what a great use of discard, for the future. i made the levain last night. i love the crunch of the exterior cornmeal.
Excellent news, Jude! 100% positive results so far! ;)
Two thoughts:
1) I'm eager to try the discard granola recipe, as I have a bunch of discard that's been in my freezer for quite awhile, awaiting a suitable use. I recall it coming through earlier this year, but neglected to take action.
2) I no longer accumulate sourdough discard. After reading Mark Bittman's recent bread book, I've modified my usual method and use all but about 5 - 10 grams of my starter in my current bake. This way, I never have excess starter to "discard" into a plastic bag in my freezer.
Jeff - I don't like to use (up) such a high percentage of starter, for 2 reasons:
1) there is a risk that I'll *literally* discard it, since it's barely a residue in the bottom of the container and I don't always feed it right away after I offload what I need for the recipe.
2) I generally use 50% inoculation for each feeding, meaning if I need 300g of levain, I need 150g of starter. Which means I need to *save* at least that much each time I make more.
In any case, for any recipe that calls for "discard", you can just *make* levain and use that instead.
It illustrates the different needs for different types of bakers. I typically bake a loaf every five days or so, to feed my wife and me. So, I keep 110 g of starter in the fridge. When I use almost all of it, that's about 100 g. I use that in my breads that are usually 510 g of flour and 410 g of water. Part of the initial dough creation routine is to refresh the starter with 55 g of water and 55 g of rye flour.
If, like I did this morning, I want to make two loaves at a time, I just reduce the amount of starter to 50 g for each, still using up almost all the starter. The loaves may take a little longer to be ready for action, but there's enough variability due to temperature in my kitchen that I don't notice.
You're running a little test kitchen, so I can see how your needs would be very different. And I totally get the fear of accidentally using all the starter. The stuff of nightmares!
I've been pondering expanding my bread making to a small subscription service, to spread the love beyond my house. I can see how my starter routine would change under those circumstances. But that's for another conversation...
This used up all but a tiny bit of the accumulation of discard in the fridge. It turned out great other than not having a ton of flavor as might be expected with an English muffin. With homemade raspberry jam, it was a wonderful breakfast. I did use bloody butcher cornmeal which added some fun crunch and color.
Turned out great, my whole family loved it! Thanks for sharing this recipe!
Made the new and improved version today, with 50 g Einkorn (in the levain) and steam pan - my Dutch oven is too small. The bread turned out great, the best English muffin bread I have made so far - I tried several recipes in the past.
Karin - Great to hear! So far, no duds, so I have a good feeling about this one!
I'm pretty sure there should be a space between the numbers and the g's, i.e., "100 g" not "100g". See, for example, https://grammarhow.com/do-you-put-a-space-between-number-and-unit/.
In contrast, "100%" (with no space) is correct.
Allen - Yes, except cookbooks and recipes have their own conventions, and you'll find loads of them that do not use the space.
Unsurprisingly, it tastes like something in between soda bread and regular bread! Really nice texture but I think I’d use a smaller pan next time because it was a little flat.
I also don’t think I’d do the cornmeal next time, it was a little TOO crunchy and makes a huge mess 😄
I love English muffins and am always looking for recipes that use surplus sourdough. I baked this bread today - we had it with bacon and eggs (and jam) and later, as a snack, with cheese and cucumber. We liked it a lot!
I found it very helpful that you specified in the ingredient list the best milk temperature for cold or room temperature starter. Since my Dutch oven would not hold a loaf pan, I baked it without one, but with steam.
I've made this several times and is always delicious. But please help me clarify... In the bakers ratios in the overall formula, there is 111% for levain and 50% for preferment flour. How does this compute to the 400g of discard in the following recipe?
that's a now-corrected typo, it should have said 100% levain. There is 400g flour overall and 400g of discard or levain. I've moved away from even highlighting the levain %, because it is less useful or precise than PFF
I made this bread now for the third time, always substituting 10% of the white flour with whole grain, today with local Somali corn flour. It always turns out great, and we love it!
Late to the party here, but wanted to mention that I baked this today to use up a bunch of 100% rye starter discard. I wasn't too sure what to expect, but when used with 200g KA Lancelot HG flour, I was really surprised at the results. I love "English muffin" breads, ever since my first take on them from an OLD bread book I've had since the '80s (Clayton); I don't bake them that often these days, since I have so little resistance to eating the whole damn loaf in 2 days (along with a few sticks of butter). But the 100% rye discard really added so much flavor. Love it.
Any idea if this would work as a pullman loaf (lid on)?
You’d have to scale it up, but maybe?
Noted, thanks! Was mostly thinking that lid-on would obviate the steaming part (which I see is not required).
ah, gotcha. I thought you wanted to make a square loaf.