Have this resting in the fridge now, so exciting! One thing I had a question about was the cardamom. First I measured by weight, but that seemed like a lot, so I tried again using my tsp. 1&1/4 tsp of ground cardamom was not 4g on my scale. Maybe it’s a problem with my calibration but thought I’d share just in case!
I’ve been excited about this recipe since you announced it. I started yesterday and baked today. I hope I didn’t desecrate your work but didn’t want it on the savory side. I added more honey plus some sugar. It turned out great. I gave half the loaf to relatives who had it for dessert. I ate too much of it. It was an instant classic to me.
Mary - You'd want some way to generate steam for the 1st half of the bake. Do you have something like a bowl you can comfortably put over the loaf while it is on the stone? That's the best/easiest approach.
I have a tight (Wolf) oven and a cast iron pan filled with lava rocks on the oven bottom. I keep the stone mid-oven. I pull the steam after 10-15 minutes (when the loaves begin to take on color, as per Jeff Hamelman). The arrangement works well and I’ve never felt the need for a Dutch oven. One more question: i’m anxious to try this bread, but the recipe is unusual. No real preferment or significant percentage of prefermented flour. Should I be confused?
If you want to use a larger % of levain and do a faster bulk proof, feel free, just be sure to reduce the amount of flour and water in the dough accordingly. (I'd probably do 30% levain/15% prefermented flour, using the method I describe here: https://wordloaf.substack.com/p/introducing-loaf-classic)
Thank you. All of the above are helpful and I plan to keep the above links in my pdf file. Traditionally taught, I still need to wrap my head around the No-knead method although I‘ve no doubt that it works and will certainly give it a try. I still enjoy various hydration levels and handling the dough, so I’m not likely to be a total convert. That being said, the chocolate sourdough as written remains on my to-do list. Many thanks for indulging my questions. 😊
i made this yesterday and i am obsessed! i am making it again tonight but only have 100g of bread flour left. how will using 200g of king arthur all purpose flour affect the bread? would it be better to supplement with more rye instead? thanks.
In a cross-border international baking event, Nancy L. and I each made a loaf of this bread working in our respective kitchens on a single day. Our sources and tools and latitudes differed, and Nancy had to cope with a power failure that went on for several hours. But we both baked chocolaty, moist, rich loaves that we agreed were among our best bakes ever.
We wouldn’t change a line of this recipe. This dough is remarkably easy and cooperative. Once it’s mixed up there’s nothing to do but wait—no folding, and minimal shaping. When bulk fermentation was complete, the dough seemed to assume the shape of a boule all on its own. Scoring was amazing; the first time either of us had scored dough that wasn’t fighting back.
We love this dough, and wonder if we could adapt it with a couple of variations. Could we switch out the cherries with walnuts for a chocolate/walnut sourdough? Would the dough work as a plain rye bread if we omitted the cocoa, cherries, and chocolate chunks? We assume the cocoa would be replaced with the same amount of flour (by weight).
This was a morale-building experience. We feel like pros. Thanks for the recipe!
Just wanted to back up Vera’s comments. It was great fun to work on this together, even if we were over 1000 miles apart. This recipe is fantastic and was also fun, because the dough was so easy to work with. One additional question: could you say a bit more about the function of the rye scald (i.e., what’s the thinking behind that)?
Thanks, Andrew! We highly recommend this recipe. Oh, I had to use cranberries (no dried sour cherries in Vancouver :(
Came out beautifully, love it! Thought it was plenty sweet and chocolatey, think I'll try with hazelnuts instead of the cherries next - it's a beautiful, special loaf, thank you!
Quick question: I’m planning to make this, but my fridge is too cold to allow for cold proofing and I’ve given up on that technique as a result. If I simply do room temperature proofing, are the end points with this dough the same as with any other sourdough? Rather than 8-24 hours, am I looking for something in the 3-4 hour range for proofing, or even quicker? I understand that the flavors may not be as “full,” but I’ve learned to live with that.
Mary - Why is your fridge too cold for cold proofing? Given that fridges need to run at 34-38 to keep food safe, and that is the temperature that doughs cold-proof at, I don't know why yours wouldn't work. I bet we can figure out what is going wrong and fix it. But yes, 3-4 hours at RT, until puffy and passes the poke test.
Hmmmm…. Perhaps that’s been an assumption on my part. Early on in my sourdough career (6-7 years ago) I tried a couple of overnight proofs and the dough did NOTHING. Way underproofed. Our fridge temp is around 36-38. When I asked the baking school folks at KA ((I’ve taken many of their advanced courses there), they said that their fridges for overnight proofing are set to 42 degrees (I believe that was the number - may have been a degree or 2 different). I guess I’ve made the assumption from that that my fridge was too cold.
I know that flavors develop well and thatccold doughs are WAY easier to score, but my couple of bad experiences early on have kept me away from wanting to ‘ruin’ any more batches. And I don’t believe that those couple of bad experiences were due to underfermentation.
KA's "fridges" are proof boxes, which can be set to any temperature. If you cold proof at 42, you just have to bake sooner. At 34, 8h is about right. I have two fridges, and proof in them both, without regard to the exact temp, and they work great! You should notice a little expansion in the fridge, but not much. As long as the dough is well-proofed during the bulk, and given some time at RT before going into the fridge (~30m), it will be fine.
I’m back. You and I had a long back-and-forth concerning cold proofing in my 38 degree fridge last week. I’m the one who was skeptical and had had poor results in the past, but indicated I would give it a try after your encouragement.
Well, it was still an abysmal failure in my view. I did an eight hour proof after leaving them out for approximately 45 minutes at 75° In my bread proofer. I scored them generously and deeply. They were still clearly underproofed based on their behavior during the bake. Although there was no tearing the scores opened up massively. I find the loaves (double recipe) themselves to be unattractive as a result. We’ll see once I slice them, but I’m unlikely to return to cold proofing anytime soon.
Mary - Sorry to hear that. I don't really understand what is going on here, I really have a hard time believing it is your fridge that is to blame. But if you have an approach that does work for you instead, by all means, stick to it!
I don’t understand what’s going on here either and I wish I did. I’m planning to repeat this but with standard room temp proofing that should at least give me more control over my final product. I’m repeating it because your flavors are superb. The loaves were denser than I like, but still enjoyably edible. The cardamom undercurrent pairs beautifully with the cherries and the chocolate.
I’m sad that the cold proofing doesn’t seem to work for me, as it would certainly give me more artistic latitude in my scoring. But in the end it’s all about flavor and crumb! 😊
I love this bread! I have to admit, at first while I was considering making this bread I didn't think I'd like sweet dessert-type, chocolaty ingredients in a sourdough loaf. It just didn't seem right. But because I like to try new food I made it. Oh, was I glad that I made this! I do plan to cut back on the cardamom just a tad next time for my liking but that is only my preference and the recipe as-is tastes wonderful. ... Andrew, now you have me wondering what a pumpkin spice sourdough bread will taste like? I'd experiment but if you've already created the recipe please let me know! My concern is how to incorporate pumpkin puree into the dough ingredients and would any of the pumpkin spice kill the natural yeast. Thank you for sharing your recipes!
Carol - Very glad you tried and liked it! I don't have a recipe with pumpkin spice, but I could see it being nice without the cocoa in this formula. I don't know how it would interact with the sourdough, I haven't see any data about how cinnamon behaves with sourdough, despite there being evidence that it slows down commercial yeast. If I can find the time, I'll do an experiment using my levain someday. Keep me posted if you do anything yourself!
My dough is pretty wet and sticky. I realize this is a high hydration dough but perhaps it is little too wet? I can work with it if this is what we are shooting for. It has only been rising for 3 hrs.
hmm, something is not right. If anything, this recipe has always been on the dry side. That said, best to wait until it's fully proofed to fiddle with it.
The loaves came out beautifully. Dough firmed up with a of couple stretch and folds and proofing time in the fridge. I am making a couple more for Christmas gifts!
I have been waiting for this one. Will be an after Christmas project. Thanks Andrew.
+1. Early gift, thanks so much!
Hi Andrew! Can this recipe easily be doubled?
yep, I did the last batch as a 2x. In fact, there are no recipes here that don't scale up or down easily.
One more question! Could I use sour cherries that have been in syrup, or will that mess with the hydration too much? Do they need to be dried?
I've only used dried, but I think if they were drained well they'll be fine. (Pitted too!)
Have this resting in the fridge now, so exciting! One thing I had a question about was the cardamom. First I measured by weight, but that seemed like a lot, so I tried again using my tsp. 1&1/4 tsp of ground cardamom was not 4g on my scale. Maybe it’s a problem with my calibration but thought I’d share just in case!
I’ve been excited about this recipe since you announced it. I started yesterday and baked today. I hope I didn’t desecrate your work but didn’t want it on the savory side. I added more honey plus some sugar. It turned out great. I gave half the loaf to relatives who had it for dessert. I ate too much of it. It was an instant classic to me.
Quick question: Would you change anything in the bake if using a baking stone rather than a Dutch oven?
Mary - You'd want some way to generate steam for the 1st half of the bake. Do you have something like a bowl you can comfortably put over the loaf while it is on the stone? That's the best/easiest approach.
I have a tight (Wolf) oven and a cast iron pan filled with lava rocks on the oven bottom. I keep the stone mid-oven. I pull the steam after 10-15 minutes (when the loaves begin to take on color, as per Jeff Hamelman). The arrangement works well and I’ve never felt the need for a Dutch oven. One more question: i’m anxious to try this bread, but the recipe is unusual. No real preferment or significant percentage of prefermented flour. Should I be confused?
Mary - Many of my recipes use a slow overnight, low-levain % format, because it is easy peasy. They all are based upon the recipe & method I describe here: https://wordloaf.substack.com/p/thursday-recipe-the-loaf
If you want to use a larger % of levain and do a faster bulk proof, feel free, just be sure to reduce the amount of flour and water in the dough accordingly. (I'd probably do 30% levain/15% prefermented flour, using the method I describe here: https://wordloaf.substack.com/p/introducing-loaf-classic)
Thank you. All of the above are helpful and I plan to keep the above links in my pdf file. Traditionally taught, I still need to wrap my head around the No-knead method although I‘ve no doubt that it works and will certainly give it a try. I still enjoy various hydration levels and handling the dough, so I’m not likely to be a total convert. That being said, the chocolate sourdough as written remains on my to-do list. Many thanks for indulging my questions. 😊
I used the lava rock method for years and still do occasionally, though I still find cloche-style baking to be slightly superior
i made this yesterday and i am obsessed! i am making it again tonight but only have 100g of bread flour left. how will using 200g of king arthur all purpose flour affect the bread? would it be better to supplement with more rye instead? thanks.
I've made it with KA AP and it is fine, if a little stickier to work with. Just use a mix and extra flour when you are shaping it!
what do you mean by "use a mix"? Thanks so much for your help!
Use bread plus KA AP!
In a cross-border international baking event, Nancy L. and I each made a loaf of this bread working in our respective kitchens on a single day. Our sources and tools and latitudes differed, and Nancy had to cope with a power failure that went on for several hours. But we both baked chocolaty, moist, rich loaves that we agreed were among our best bakes ever.
We wouldn’t change a line of this recipe. This dough is remarkably easy and cooperative. Once it’s mixed up there’s nothing to do but wait—no folding, and minimal shaping. When bulk fermentation was complete, the dough seemed to assume the shape of a boule all on its own. Scoring was amazing; the first time either of us had scored dough that wasn’t fighting back.
We love this dough, and wonder if we could adapt it with a couple of variations. Could we switch out the cherries with walnuts for a chocolate/walnut sourdough? Would the dough work as a plain rye bread if we omitted the cocoa, cherries, and chocolate chunks? We assume the cocoa would be replaced with the same amount of flour (by weight).
This was a morale-building experience. We feel like pros. Thanks for the recipe!
Just wanted to back up Vera’s comments. It was great fun to work on this together, even if we were over 1000 miles apart. This recipe is fantastic and was also fun, because the dough was so easy to work with. One additional question: could you say a bit more about the function of the rye scald (i.e., what’s the thinking behind that)?
Thanks, Andrew! We highly recommend this recipe. Oh, I had to use cranberries (no dried sour cherries in Vancouver :(
Came out beautifully, love it! Thought it was plenty sweet and chocolatey, think I'll try with hazelnuts instead of the cherries next - it's a beautiful, special loaf, thank you!
hazelnuts would be excellent here
Quick question: I’m planning to make this, but my fridge is too cold to allow for cold proofing and I’ve given up on that technique as a result. If I simply do room temperature proofing, are the end points with this dough the same as with any other sourdough? Rather than 8-24 hours, am I looking for something in the 3-4 hour range for proofing, or even quicker? I understand that the flavors may not be as “full,” but I’ve learned to live with that.
Mary - Why is your fridge too cold for cold proofing? Given that fridges need to run at 34-38 to keep food safe, and that is the temperature that doughs cold-proof at, I don't know why yours wouldn't work. I bet we can figure out what is going wrong and fix it. But yes, 3-4 hours at RT, until puffy and passes the poke test.
Hmmmm…. Perhaps that’s been an assumption on my part. Early on in my sourdough career (6-7 years ago) I tried a couple of overnight proofs and the dough did NOTHING. Way underproofed. Our fridge temp is around 36-38. When I asked the baking school folks at KA ((I’ve taken many of their advanced courses there), they said that their fridges for overnight proofing are set to 42 degrees (I believe that was the number - may have been a degree or 2 different). I guess I’ve made the assumption from that that my fridge was too cold.
I know that flavors develop well and thatccold doughs are WAY easier to score, but my couple of bad experiences early on have kept me away from wanting to ‘ruin’ any more batches. And I don’t believe that those couple of bad experiences were due to underfermentation.
KA's "fridges" are proof boxes, which can be set to any temperature. If you cold proof at 42, you just have to bake sooner. At 34, 8h is about right. I have two fridges, and proof in them both, without regard to the exact temp, and they work great! You should notice a little expansion in the fridge, but not much. As long as the dough is well-proofed during the bulk, and given some time at RT before going into the fridge (~30m), it will be fine.
I’ll try to screw up my nerve and give it a go again. 😊👍
I’m back. You and I had a long back-and-forth concerning cold proofing in my 38 degree fridge last week. I’m the one who was skeptical and had had poor results in the past, but indicated I would give it a try after your encouragement.
Well, it was still an abysmal failure in my view. I did an eight hour proof after leaving them out for approximately 45 minutes at 75° In my bread proofer. I scored them generously and deeply. They were still clearly underproofed based on their behavior during the bake. Although there was no tearing the scores opened up massively. I find the loaves (double recipe) themselves to be unattractive as a result. We’ll see once I slice them, but I’m unlikely to return to cold proofing anytime soon.
Mary - Sorry to hear that. I don't really understand what is going on here, I really have a hard time believing it is your fridge that is to blame. But if you have an approach that does work for you instead, by all means, stick to it!
I don’t understand what’s going on here either and I wish I did. I’m planning to repeat this but with standard room temp proofing that should at least give me more control over my final product. I’m repeating it because your flavors are superb. The loaves were denser than I like, but still enjoyably edible. The cardamom undercurrent pairs beautifully with the cherries and the chocolate.
I’m sad that the cold proofing doesn’t seem to work for me, as it would certainly give me more artistic latitude in my scoring. But in the end it’s all about flavor and crumb! 😊
I love this bread! I have to admit, at first while I was considering making this bread I didn't think I'd like sweet dessert-type, chocolaty ingredients in a sourdough loaf. It just didn't seem right. But because I like to try new food I made it. Oh, was I glad that I made this! I do plan to cut back on the cardamom just a tad next time for my liking but that is only my preference and the recipe as-is tastes wonderful. ... Andrew, now you have me wondering what a pumpkin spice sourdough bread will taste like? I'd experiment but if you've already created the recipe please let me know! My concern is how to incorporate pumpkin puree into the dough ingredients and would any of the pumpkin spice kill the natural yeast. Thank you for sharing your recipes!
Carol - Very glad you tried and liked it! I don't have a recipe with pumpkin spice, but I could see it being nice without the cocoa in this formula. I don't know how it would interact with the sourdough, I haven't see any data about how cinnamon behaves with sourdough, despite there being evidence that it slows down commercial yeast. If I can find the time, I'll do an experiment using my levain someday. Keep me posted if you do anything yourself!
My dough is pretty wet and sticky. I realize this is a high hydration dough but perhaps it is little too wet? I can work with it if this is what we are shooting for. It has only been rising for 3 hrs.
hmm, something is not right. If anything, this recipe has always been on the dry side. That said, best to wait until it's fully proofed to fiddle with it.
The loaves came out beautifully. Dough firmed up with a of couple stretch and folds and proofing time in the fridge. I am making a couple more for Christmas gifts!