If I was making smaller pies from this recipe (150g portion), should I bulk ferment the entire 750g recipe in the fridge for 24 to 96 hours, then divide into smaller portions and then fridge ferment again until I'm ready to bake. So primary fermentation for 72 hours, then ball and ferment for 24 hours? OR time my two fermentations to equal 72 hours of total fermentation time?
Tom - If I was making pies of a different size, I'd just divide the dough to that scale and otherwise do things on the same timeline. The scale of dough has no bearing on the fermentation schedule.
Hi Andrew, I was born, raised, and still live in the Boston area (metro west). I actually love Greek pizza, and I have a recipe that I found last year (that I’ve tweaked a bit) but it still isn’t 100%. If you ever want to do a Greek pizza, I’d be very interested (and can share my recipe with you if interested). But back to Italian pizzas... I’m not sure where you’re located, but in Watertown, there is a pizza place that’s been there forever, Stella’s. It’s so freakin delicious, there is something special about it, when you smell/taste it, you know it’s Stella’s. If you know the place (right by all the armo stores), I’d take any tips you have for a copycat.
Tanya - Greek pizza is on the list! Feel free to send the recipe along if you like. And I know Stella's well, it's actually a great NYC slice. Or usually it is, last time I was there they were not so great. Might have just been an off day though.
Just made the dough—looking forward to Friday dinner! BTW, I followed it exactly, yet my final temp was 82°. 33°F water, 72° kitchen. 45 seconds first mix, 10 min autolyse, 60 sec final mix. Cuisinart food processor; same model as yours.
Mark - You likely mixed it longer than necessary it if so, as mine _never_ gets that hot. As with all my recipes, use the visual indicator ("evenly mixed and no dry flour remains") as the primary test of a step's completion. The timing is there to tell you how long it _should_ take. You'll probably be fine, but it's always better to err on the side of undermixed than overheated.
I was just looking at your DDT formula and it looks like your flour is much cooler than mine at 66°. Using your formula with my temps:
65 - 72 [flour temperature] = -7
65 - 72 [room temperature] = -7
65 - 30 [food processor] = 36
- 7 - 7 + 36 =22˚F water temperature, which is a little tough to achieve! When I plugged your room & ingredient temps it came to 34° water...that’s why ice water works for you; you’re conditions are cooler. I could try pre-cooling the flour in the fridge or freezer first.
Mark - I promise you, you don't need to use DDT here and it's not the reason your dough overheated. I don't ever use it with food processor pizza doughs, and they never get above 65 after mixing. Just don't overmix it. The goal in step 1 is to get all the dry flour hydrated, and in step two to build structure, but it doesn't need to be much. Most of the development happens during the autolyse.
Mark - Just an update: I made 5 batches of dough for my flatbreads class last week, and all ended up at 65F after mixing (I checked, because your comments made me paranoid that my recommendations were off.) It does work, at least with my food processor!
Cool! I’m sure mine will be cooler this week as it’s in the 40's/50's these mornings. Last week my kitchen and dry ingredients were at 74°, probably warmer than yours. The dough was great, BTW! No appreciable difference between the 71° and 82° batches, honestly. I let them final bench rise about 60 minutes and did the double-stacked pizza stone/steel combination; preheated to 550°, then cooked under broiler (my variation) for 4 minutes total. Huge charred bubbles on top and a nice leopard pattern on bottom.
Mark - I think you'll be fine with 71F dough going into the fridge, but I'm not sure why yours is heating up warmer than mine. I literally have made this recipe hundreds of times and it always works for me. In either case, using ice water means the dough ends up far colder than it would be otherwise.
Thanks and apologies for all my comments! I’ve been making pizza at home for over 25 years...it took time and several failures over the years, but I’m generally proud of my output now. I've made the 2011 ATK recipe probably 500 times; your refinements (including gluten and malt additions) are in line with my own experiments. I was intrigued by your target dough temp and trust your advice, so was confounded when I couldn’t replicate it. No worries!
Just wanted to chime in here because I seem to be having the same issue as Mark. I’ve made this recipe a few times over the past month or so, and my final dough temp is always around 80 degrees when I’m done with the the food processor. I’m keeping my flour out in the garage during the winter, so my flour temp is right around 60 degrees. Ice water temp is about 36 degrees, room temp is about 70 degrees. I only mix about 30 seconds on the first mix, let sit for about 15 min, then mix for another 30 seconds. When I’m done, my dough registers 80 degrees using a thermoworks thermapen. It’s been like this every time I’ve made it, including yesterday morning for pizza I will make tomorrow night. The pizza/dough still comes out great, just thought I’d let you know that I’m running into the same issue.
Tanya - good to know. As long as you aren't having issues, it sounds fine. In any case, had you not used ice-cold water, the dough would end up much warmer, so it's still essential to the process.
I'm sort of amazed that using high-protein flour doesn't make the final dough unmanageably elastic for final shaping. (But since it works for you, obviously it isn't unmanageable.)
I also have heard that hi-pro flour is traditional for NYC-style pizza. Perhaps the long retarding helps...
I use an average protein typo-00 for my Neapolitan dough and include a long retard, too...and am happy with how that handles.
Allen - that's a hi-gluten flour in the dough above, and while it's strong, it's not at all difficult to shape. (Hydration plays a role here too, obviously.)
A question about semolina—because semolina is better for dusting your peel, should you also dip your dough in semolina instead of flour before shaping? With the super peel, you don’t need any semolina or bench flour, right? Thanks!
Jax - No! You'll just imbed semolina into the dough. If you prefer semolina to flour (I'd rather use extra flour than grainy semolina), then use it on the peel only.
oh ok! should I add some to the super peel or should I just leave it empty because of the conveyor belt style. I don’t really care about the semolina flavor or anything; I can’t taste it anyways.
Just tried it for the first time, and it came out really well. I need to work on my sauce and toppings (chicken garlic for us and olives and onion for the child) but the crust was great. I loaded it into the oven on parchment, which charred a bit at 550, but not badly in 8 minutes. Eventually I'll get a grown-up peel to replace the one from Papa Murphy's.
If I’m planning to use a stand mixer then is it still necessary to knead by hand until smooth in step 4 or can I just keep mixing with the dough hook until it’s smooth?
Sorry if this is an obvious question, it will actually be my first time using my new stand mixer. :)
Also, just a note on the ingredients list: here in Dallas I have not been able to find any vital wheat gluten at either the regular grocery store or the more upscale WholeFoodsy type store.
Probably not, it should come together in the machine. Sorry you haven't been able to find VWG, I'm a little surprised, since it's commonly available around here. You can also find it at Amazon, and you use so little that you'd probably only need to buy it once a year.
Michelle - I hope your stone or steel and peel are on the way! In the meantime, you'll have to form the pizza on parchment on a sheet pan, and just bake it in as hot an oven as you can muster. It's going to take considerably longer than it would without a surface to bake it on, but I'm sure it will still be enjoyable!
Thanks!! My oven goes up to 550...would you recommend placing the sheet pan on the lowest rack or directly on the bottom of the oven or something else? Looking forward to some delicious pizza!
Just made another batch of dough tonight to bake Friday or Saturday. Huge hit with the family. In the process (!) It was clear the lid on my food processor is about to give up the ghost after 30+ years, so if I'm going to replace it, was wondering if there were any recommendations for a good choice for breadmaking.
I have a 10 year old Kitchen Aid that is still going strong, though it is in need of a bowl replacement at this point. I'd just get the biggest/best you can find. As of last year, this was ATK's choice: the Cuisinart Custom 14 Cup Food Processor
This is delicious! I’ve made it six times now. Recently I’ve started using it in my Roccbox pizza oven, baking at 350C. However it is less crispy in the Roccbox than in my home oven. Do you have any guesses about what is going on?
This sounds intriguing, though more complicated than mine (poolish overnight of 750gr flour, 900gr water, 5gr yeast; morning add 750 gr flour, 30 gr salt, 25gr yeast, 90gr oil; follow with rising, kneading etc, all at kitchen or basement temp as indicated, made into dough balls around an hour before turning into crusts.) Yield is eight crusts generally around 310gr each (there's always a bit of variation, so I weigh the dough and divide by eight.) I'd be interested in trying this but: really? Who has that much real estate for 2500gr of dough in their fridge for 1-4 days? Pas moi, my friend!
Mike: Don't knock it till you try it! Also: more complicated? This one is in the fridge 20m after starting and is hands off except for shaping into balls. No poolish, no folding or kneading, and no room temperature rising time.
How long do you usually knead after the food processor/stand mixer? I've used both methods and end up kneading for a long time without really getting a very smooth surface then end up with a tough dough afterwards.
Hey Andrew,
If I was making smaller pies from this recipe (150g portion), should I bulk ferment the entire 750g recipe in the fridge for 24 to 96 hours, then divide into smaller portions and then fridge ferment again until I'm ready to bake. So primary fermentation for 72 hours, then ball and ferment for 24 hours? OR time my two fermentations to equal 72 hours of total fermentation time?
Tom - If I was making pies of a different size, I'd just divide the dough to that scale and otherwise do things on the same timeline. The scale of dough has no bearing on the fermentation schedule.
Thx!
I recently bought a bag of americana flour from Caputo (14.25% protein, tipo 00) and I’m excited to use it for this recipe!
Hi Andrew, I was born, raised, and still live in the Boston area (metro west). I actually love Greek pizza, and I have a recipe that I found last year (that I’ve tweaked a bit) but it still isn’t 100%. If you ever want to do a Greek pizza, I’d be very interested (and can share my recipe with you if interested). But back to Italian pizzas... I’m not sure where you’re located, but in Watertown, there is a pizza place that’s been there forever, Stella’s. It’s so freakin delicious, there is something special about it, when you smell/taste it, you know it’s Stella’s. If you know the place (right by all the armo stores), I’d take any tips you have for a copycat.
Tanya - Greek pizza is on the list! Feel free to send the recipe along if you like. And I know Stella's well, it's actually a great NYC slice. Or usually it is, last time I was there they were not so great. Might have just been an off day though.
Just made the dough—looking forward to Friday dinner! BTW, I followed it exactly, yet my final temp was 82°. 33°F water, 72° kitchen. 45 seconds first mix, 10 min autolyse, 60 sec final mix. Cuisinart food processor; same model as yours.
Mark - You likely mixed it longer than necessary it if so, as mine _never_ gets that hot. As with all my recipes, use the visual indicator ("evenly mixed and no dry flour remains") as the primary test of a step's completion. The timing is there to tell you how long it _should_ take. You'll probably be fine, but it's always better to err on the side of undermixed than overheated.
To be safe, I just adjusted the description and ranges for those steps.
Cool—I might try another batch tomorrow to compare. 2 nights of pizza makes my wife happy!
I was just looking at your DDT formula and it looks like your flour is much cooler than mine at 66°. Using your formula with my temps:
65 - 72 [flour temperature] = -7
65 - 72 [room temperature] = -7
65 - 30 [food processor] = 36
- 7 - 7 + 36 =22˚F water temperature, which is a little tough to achieve! When I plugged your room & ingredient temps it came to 34° water...that’s why ice water works for you; you’re conditions are cooler. I could try pre-cooling the flour in the fridge or freezer first.
I’d think fridge temp would also affect how quickly it fermented. My fridge is either 36° or 38°F.
Mark - I promise you, you don't need to use DDT here and it's not the reason your dough overheated. I don't ever use it with food processor pizza doughs, and they never get above 65 after mixing. Just don't overmix it. The goal in step 1 is to get all the dry flour hydrated, and in step two to build structure, but it doesn't need to be much. Most of the development happens during the autolyse.
As for fridge temps, a few degrees either way shouldn't matter, as long as it's <40F.
And, yes, my math is off by 1...it’d be 21° water.
Mark - Just an update: I made 5 batches of dough for my flatbreads class last week, and all ended up at 65F after mixing (I checked, because your comments made me paranoid that my recommendations were off.) It does work, at least with my food processor!
Cool! I’m sure mine will be cooler this week as it’s in the 40's/50's these mornings. Last week my kitchen and dry ingredients were at 74°, probably warmer than yours. The dough was great, BTW! No appreciable difference between the 71° and 82° batches, honestly. I let them final bench rise about 60 minutes and did the double-stacked pizza stone/steel combination; preheated to 550°, then cooked under broiler (my variation) for 4 minutes total. Huge charred bubbles on top and a nice leopard pattern on bottom.
Sorry, Andrew, I just tried again and I don’t see how it’s possible to hit 65° in a food processor without a cooler room/ingredients:
Unpulsed flour: 74°
Pulsed flour, etc. 5x (5 sec. total): 75°
Added oil & 34° water, mixed 34 seconds: 63°
10-minute rest: 63°
Added salt, mixed 19 sec.: 70°
Hand kneaded 15 seconds: 71°
I can share photos of the dough if you like; 3 photos: after first knead, after 2nd knead, after hand knead.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/06Jthx2OsauIuKW_mQxhJ2xGA
Mark - I think you'll be fine with 71F dough going into the fridge, but I'm not sure why yours is heating up warmer than mine. I literally have made this recipe hundreds of times and it always works for me. In either case, using ice water means the dough ends up far colder than it would be otherwise.
Thanks and apologies for all my comments! I’ve been making pizza at home for over 25 years...it took time and several failures over the years, but I’m generally proud of my output now. I've made the 2011 ATK recipe probably 500 times; your refinements (including gluten and malt additions) are in line with my own experiments. I was intrigued by your target dough temp and trust your advice, so was confounded when I couldn’t replicate it. No worries!
No need to apologize! Comments are helpful to sort out if things need further explanation or refinement.
Just wanted to chime in here because I seem to be having the same issue as Mark. I’ve made this recipe a few times over the past month or so, and my final dough temp is always around 80 degrees when I’m done with the the food processor. I’m keeping my flour out in the garage during the winter, so my flour temp is right around 60 degrees. Ice water temp is about 36 degrees, room temp is about 70 degrees. I only mix about 30 seconds on the first mix, let sit for about 15 min, then mix for another 30 seconds. When I’m done, my dough registers 80 degrees using a thermoworks thermapen. It’s been like this every time I’ve made it, including yesterday morning for pizza I will make tomorrow night. The pizza/dough still comes out great, just thought I’d let you know that I’m running into the same issue.
Tanya - good to know. As long as you aren't having issues, it sounds fine. In any case, had you not used ice-cold water, the dough would end up much warmer, so it's still essential to the process.
I'm sort of amazed that using high-protein flour doesn't make the final dough unmanageably elastic for final shaping. (But since it works for you, obviously it isn't unmanageable.)
I also have heard that hi-pro flour is traditional for NYC-style pizza. Perhaps the long retarding helps...
I use an average protein typo-00 for my Neapolitan dough and include a long retard, too...and am happy with how that handles.
Allen - that's a hi-gluten flour in the dough above, and while it's strong, it's not at all difficult to shape. (Hydration plays a role here too, obviously.)
A question about semolina—because semolina is better for dusting your peel, should you also dip your dough in semolina instead of flour before shaping? With the super peel, you don’t need any semolina or bench flour, right? Thanks!
Jax - No! You'll just imbed semolina into the dough. If you prefer semolina to flour (I'd rather use extra flour than grainy semolina), then use it on the peel only.
oh ok! should I add some to the super peel or should I just leave it empty because of the conveyor belt style. I don’t really care about the semolina flavor or anything; I can’t taste it anyways.
Just tried it for the first time, and it came out really well. I need to work on my sauce and toppings (chicken garlic for us and olives and onion for the child) but the crust was great. I loaded it into the oven on parchment, which charred a bit at 550, but not badly in 8 minutes. Eventually I'll get a grown-up peel to replace the one from Papa Murphy's.
What brand of low moisture aged mozzarella do you recommend? Also, when is the sauce recipe coming out? Thanks!
ATK liked Polly-O and Galbani whole milk.
they didn't test many varieties so.........
If I’m planning to use a stand mixer then is it still necessary to knead by hand until smooth in step 4 or can I just keep mixing with the dough hook until it’s smooth?
Sorry if this is an obvious question, it will actually be my first time using my new stand mixer. :)
Also, just a note on the ingredients list: here in Dallas I have not been able to find any vital wheat gluten at either the regular grocery store or the more upscale WholeFoodsy type store.
Probably not, it should come together in the machine. Sorry you haven't been able to find VWG, I'm a little surprised, since it's commonly available around here. You can also find it at Amazon, and you use so little that you'd probably only need to buy it once a year.
Hi Andrew, this is my first attempt at making pizza, so I don't have a stone, steel or peel. How do I go about cooking? Thanks!
Michelle - I hope your stone or steel and peel are on the way! In the meantime, you'll have to form the pizza on parchment on a sheet pan, and just bake it in as hot an oven as you can muster. It's going to take considerably longer than it would without a surface to bake it on, but I'm sure it will still be enjoyable!
Thanks!! My oven goes up to 550...would you recommend placing the sheet pan on the lowest rack or directly on the bottom of the oven or something else? Looking forward to some delicious pizza!
Just made another batch of dough tonight to bake Friday or Saturday. Huge hit with the family. In the process (!) It was clear the lid on my food processor is about to give up the ghost after 30+ years, so if I'm going to replace it, was wondering if there were any recommendations for a good choice for breadmaking.
I have a 10 year old Kitchen Aid that is still going strong, though it is in need of a bowl replacement at this point. I'd just get the biggest/best you can find. As of last year, this was ATK's choice: the Cuisinart Custom 14 Cup Food Processor
This is delicious! I’ve made it six times now. Recently I’ve started using it in my Roccbox pizza oven, baking at 350C. However it is less crispy in the Roccbox than in my home oven. Do you have any guesses about what is going on?
Thank you for a great recipe!
This sounds intriguing, though more complicated than mine (poolish overnight of 750gr flour, 900gr water, 5gr yeast; morning add 750 gr flour, 30 gr salt, 25gr yeast, 90gr oil; follow with rising, kneading etc, all at kitchen or basement temp as indicated, made into dough balls around an hour before turning into crusts.) Yield is eight crusts generally around 310gr each (there's always a bit of variation, so I weigh the dough and divide by eight.) I'd be interested in trying this but: really? Who has that much real estate for 2500gr of dough in their fridge for 1-4 days? Pas moi, my friend!
Mike: Don't knock it till you try it! Also: more complicated? This one is in the fridge 20m after starting and is hands off except for shaping into balls. No poolish, no folding or kneading, and no room temperature rising time.
How long do you usually knead after the food processor/stand mixer? I've used both methods and end up kneading for a long time without really getting a very smooth surface then end up with a tough dough afterwards.