I like the way you give the different options for each formula variation. After doing some follow-up math, I realize that you add the levain (half water/half flour) into your hydration percentage (at least it seems that way). I can't figure out the percentage of the levain though. I always thought that if I divide the levain amount (130) by the total flour amount (429) it would give me the percentage of levain relative to total flour. I come up with 30.3% where you list 25%. So my bakers' math must be off. Can you clarify how you come to this result?
Sabine - you are close! But you need to include _all_ of the flour in the recipe, including the half of the levain that is flour, or 65g. 130/490 = 26% (the slight difference has to do with the way my spreadsheet calculates things, but it is close enough).
Andrew, thanks for explaining, but now I see that there is a math error in [80% hydration; 35% levain]: total flour 390+25+154/2=492, levain at 154 is only 31%. To make it 35% you'd need 173 of levain and 390 + 20 of dry flours. Yes, I am a nerd :)
Thanks for the guidance. I’m curious: yours is the only recipe with which I’m familiar that calls for the dough to double during bulk before proofing in the fridge. Most recipes call for a 30-60% rise. Could you explain? And what temperature is your fridge that allows for the dough not to overproof during its stay there?
Netta - I do know that plenty of people are more conservative about marking when bulk fermentation is complete, and I do think you can move to shaping sooner and still have great results, but with my formulas, shaping at the nearly doubled stage seems to work just fine. (I've never once had a loaf overproof when doing so.) And I'd rather make sure it is good and active before shaping than doing so too soon and risk it not being active enough after it goes into the fridge. But you've inspired me to do some testing around this and see what happens when I move things along a little sooner. (I do think that the difference between 60% and 100% in terms of _activity_ is probably not that different. 30% is another story.)
As for my fridge, it is a normal fridge, so about 35˚F. That's pretty cold, as far as doughs are concerned, so overproofing is not a worry. Have you had doughs overproof in the fridge?
also, I forgot to say, without a proper container, it's really annoying/hard to judge when a ball of dough has expanded to a precise amount. A round narrow one is great for that purpose, but it's terrible for doing folds in, while a bowl is great for folding but makes visualization challenging.
fill your bowl with 200g water and mark it at the water line on the outside of the bowl with a sharpie, then add another 200g, mark it with a sharpie, repeat, repeat, repeat, and you will have a visual ratio to judge the volume.
unfortunately I only have a shower. And I came up with it because I am the queen of wanting to go to bed at an hour typically reserved for grandmothers, and need a bit of an accountability marker so I don't end up with gummy loaves.
I still stand by my "wide containers are great for folding, narrow one are great for visualization" assertion. A container that is wide enough for folding dough will have the tick marks pretty close together since the dough is spread out so thin. That's one reason I prefer to make multi-batch doughs, that way they fill containers that are still wide enough to work in easily.
Thank you both for the generous replies! To monitor percentage growth, I use an “aliquot jar” a la Kristen Dennis of Full Proof Baking. I take around a 30g nub of my dough after adding salt and levain and press it flat into a small spice jar, straight cylinder. I mark where it begins and where it should end. Granted, folding during bulk degasses my dough, so the aliquot jar can never be 100% accurate, but it’s been quite helpful.
Andrew, I’ve been taking my loaves to double since you replied and have had great success! My crumb is still pretty even, but that just means more practice. Likely shaping or scoring issues. Thanks again!
So, in the recipe, you suggest transferring to a straight-sided container in step 3. Do you keep transferring it back and forth, so you can do your coil folds? Or should that transfer really done after the last coil fold?
I see. I'm leaning towards just keeping in the bowl, and guesstimating when the bulk ferment is done, then. Worked for me with the original Loaf!
BTW, have you done a post on shaping? Even 75% hydration is pretty high, at least for me. Though with the banneton (well, towel-line colander, actually), it seemed my poor shaping skills were good enough!
Mary - it's 11g, regardless of the salt being used. That's the beauty of measuring by weight. 11g of Diamond kosher is 3-3/4 teaspoons by my conversion.
This may be a bad question, but about how many inches high should a loaf be? I’ve made this twice and I’m happy with the spring, but I’m curious if it should be higher.
I am a new sourdough baker and have tried this recipe as well as Martin Philip's version of Maura's Sourdough. I am struggling to get a good oven spring with both recipes, and I think it might be that I am over fermenting during the bulk phase. (I am using a combo cooker and shaping well, as far as I can see. I also only proof in the fridge for 8-12 hours.) Can you clarify step six for me? When it says to "allow to proof until domed and about doubled in volume, 30m to 2h longer" does that mean that it should be doubled from that point, or from where the dough started when it was first mixed after autolyse? Because even leaving my dough in an 80 degree proofer for 2 hours in step six, I'm not anywhere near doubled. But I may be doubled from where the dough started initially. Can you clarify? Thank you!!
Just to confirm: In this recipe the dough goes directly from fridge to oven without allowing it to come to room temp? I've been baking mostly with the King Arthur no-knead sourdough recipe, which has a different process overall, and it comes out 3 hours before baking.
Robert — That's right. As long as a dough is sufficiently fermented prior to and during the cold-proof, there's no need for further proofing out of the fridge. Aside from the convenience of it, the dough is usually easier to get out of the basket and to score cleanly when it is cold. (Some say you also get better oven spring/ears too.)
I made the beginner formula and the results were so good! I appreciate that you have made it easy and enjoyable to make such a great loaf at home. I wasn't sure if this would be worth the extra work since the no-knead recipe works so well, but IT IS WORTH IT, both from getting your hands in the dough to feel the transformation process (not everyone appreciates that experience) to the final outcome. Compared to no-knead, the loaf had more spring, better crumb and terrific chew! I will still use the no-knead for convenience but thanks for giving us a way to take it up a notch when time allows.
Thanks for this, Andrew. My rustic loaves were getting worse and worse and worse over the years. So frustrating!
Yesterday I made this and it was much, much better!
I'm vexed because the differences between what yours and what I did seem very minor...I wouldn't think they would make a difference. But they did!
Two questions:
1) I don't like to mix by hand. Have you or anyone you heard of had success using a stand mixer to do the mixing before the folding? What worked?
2) Coil folds seem to be all the rage these days. I certainly don't mind doing them. But I can't see how they are materially different from old school stretch-and-folds...except that they seem to stretch both sides of the dough simultaneously. Thoughts?
Allen - so happy to hear that. I know my recipes work for me, so it's always good to know they work for others. As for your questions:
1) you could easily do the mixing steps in a machine, just run it long enough to achieve the mixing, no need go longer than that.
2) I find them more thorough than bowl stretch-and-fold, the dough tightens up more quickly. And less messy than countertop S&Fs. But any form of folding should work, really.
3) (below) I cover my bannetons with shower caps, and they only cover the top and upper sides, and that seems sufficient. I think covering the entire thing should be fine too, though it might be the case sometimes that the minor amount of moisture wicking that happens when the bottom of the banneton is exposed could help prevent dough sticking. With the pulp bannetons I use, that's never an issue. OTOH, I don't think a loaf will pick up fridge smells all that quickly.
On a related note, on my list of things to try is tangzhong method for high-hydration rustic loaves like these. I know this method is most common for fluffy white breads. But I wonder if it might make a high-hydration lean dough much easier to handle.
Not specifically, but did you see the post I just put up yesterday? Because adding instant mashed potatoes and more water is essentially the same thing. And I like it!
For step 9, can the proofing basket be placed directly in the fridge...or is it best to cover the top...or entire outer surface to prevent excess moisture loss and/or migration of fridge smells to dough? I've been wrapping the entire basket in plastic wrap...but am not sure if that is necessary or good...
Hi Andrew! I love this recipe and I have been making it regularly for over a year now. It's always great. I make it at the 75% hydration. Recently, I have been saving myself some time by just mixing together the water, starter and salt, then adding both flours at once, instead of letting the flours autolyse for an hour. It speeds up the process and makes it easier for me and there really has not been any noticeable difference. I guess I wanted to 1) share that with you as data/feedback and 2) ask if there is any risk or anything I should look out for when cutting that corner?
Thank you for this recipe and all of your great writing and recipe dev!
Ben - you might notice that the dough needs more folds to get to a similar place, structure-wise, and/or slightly less height in the finished loaf because of weaker structure. But I'm not surprised it works, you can often cut corners with breads and get a nice result!
I made this recipe for the first time at 80% hydration for a friendsgiving this past weekend, came out great. I feel like I didn't really "get" bread until I started making higher hydration recipes - I've made bread on and off since I was a kid but never really felt the transformation in lower hydrated, kneaded loaves I just kind of kneaded for 10 minutes, not really knowing what I accomplished. I've found your higher hydration recipes to be the best teaching tools for understanding gluten formation and bread making generally - the transformatiom from wet mess to loaf is just so dramatic. Thanks for another great recipe!
Agreed, Zach! inching up on hydration can do wonders for a loaf, and it's amazing how easy it is to work with wetter doughs once you get a feel for it. Glad you liked!
Hi Andrew! About to make my very first ever sourdough bread using this formula/recipe (beginner hydration with 35% as my kitchen is cold!!) and am confused on one point. My levain took a very long time to double yesterday (did the quick build version) and put it in the fridge last night before bed after it’d doubled (plus a bit more!) - now wondering if I can use it cold from the fridge or let it come to room temp during the 1h autolyse? Per your other posts, I thought I’d increase the water temp to get closer to 78 but since the flour and water sit for 1h before the levain comes into contact, should I not adjust the temperature? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
Aviva - You should let the levain come to room temperature at first if possible. As for the dough, you should always do your best to get the dough to end up 78-80F at the start of mixing, but if that doesn't happen, proofing it at that temperature should do the trick, since small amounts of dough are quick to equilibrate to the space they are in. Hope that helps!
Thank you for the amazingly fast answer! I didn’t know if spending the extra time out of the fridge after its 12 hour time in there would be bad for it! Very excited for my first loaf and thanks again!
I like the way you give the different options for each formula variation. After doing some follow-up math, I realize that you add the levain (half water/half flour) into your hydration percentage (at least it seems that way). I can't figure out the percentage of the levain though. I always thought that if I divide the levain amount (130) by the total flour amount (429) it would give me the percentage of levain relative to total flour. I come up with 30.3% where you list 25%. So my bakers' math must be off. Can you clarify how you come to this result?
Sabine - you are close! But you need to include _all_ of the flour in the recipe, including the half of the levain that is flour, or 65g. 130/490 = 26% (the slight difference has to do with the way my spreadsheet calculates things, but it is close enough).
Andrew, thanks for explaining, but now I see that there is a math error in [80% hydration; 35% levain]: total flour 390+25+154/2=492, levain at 154 is only 31%. To make it 35% you'd need 173 of levain and 390 + 20 of dry flours. Yes, I am a nerd :)
Anna - Good catch. That was a math error on my part. I've updated both versions of the recipe now. Thanks!
The slightly off numbers were bugging me. I've just updated all of the formulas so that they now are accurately 25 or 35% levain.
Thanks for the guidance. I’m curious: yours is the only recipe with which I’m familiar that calls for the dough to double during bulk before proofing in the fridge. Most recipes call for a 30-60% rise. Could you explain? And what temperature is your fridge that allows for the dough not to overproof during its stay there?
Netta - I do know that plenty of people are more conservative about marking when bulk fermentation is complete, and I do think you can move to shaping sooner and still have great results, but with my formulas, shaping at the nearly doubled stage seems to work just fine. (I've never once had a loaf overproof when doing so.) And I'd rather make sure it is good and active before shaping than doing so too soon and risk it not being active enough after it goes into the fridge. But you've inspired me to do some testing around this and see what happens when I move things along a little sooner. (I do think that the difference between 60% and 100% in terms of _activity_ is probably not that different. 30% is another story.)
As for my fridge, it is a normal fridge, so about 35˚F. That's pretty cold, as far as doughs are concerned, so overproofing is not a worry. Have you had doughs overproof in the fridge?
also, I forgot to say, without a proper container, it's really annoying/hard to judge when a ball of dough has expanded to a precise amount. A round narrow one is great for that purpose, but it's terrible for doing folds in, while a bowl is great for folding but makes visualization challenging.
fill your bowl with 200g water and mark it at the water line on the outside of the bowl with a sharpie, then add another 200g, mark it with a sharpie, repeat, repeat, repeat, and you will have a visual ratio to judge the volume.
Did you think up this method while taking a bath?! Genius!
unfortunately I only have a shower. And I came up with it because I am the queen of wanting to go to bed at an hour typically reserved for grandmothers, and need a bit of an accountability marker so I don't end up with gummy loaves.
I will still refer to you as Archimedes from now on
I still stand by my "wide containers are great for folding, narrow one are great for visualization" assertion. A container that is wide enough for folding dough will have the tick marks pretty close together since the dough is spread out so thin. That's one reason I prefer to make multi-batch doughs, that way they fill containers that are still wide enough to work in easily.
Thank you both for the generous replies! To monitor percentage growth, I use an “aliquot jar” a la Kristen Dennis of Full Proof Baking. I take around a 30g nub of my dough after adding salt and levain and press it flat into a small spice jar, straight cylinder. I mark where it begins and where it should end. Granted, folding during bulk degasses my dough, so the aliquot jar can never be 100% accurate, but it’s been quite helpful.
Andrew, I’ve been taking my loaves to double since you replied and have had great success! My crumb is still pretty even, but that just means more practice. Likely shaping or scoring issues. Thanks again!
So, in the recipe, you suggest transferring to a straight-sided container in step 3. Do you keep transferring it back and forth, so you can do your coil folds? Or should that transfer really done after the last coil fold?
Not back and forth. Before you start folding, because it's going to start expanding as the folds progress.
I see. I'm leaning towards just keeping in the bowl, and guesstimating when the bulk ferment is done, then. Worked for me with the original Loaf!
BTW, have you done a post on shaping? Even 75% hydration is pretty high, at least for me. Though with the banneton (well, towel-line colander, actually), it seemed my poor shaping skills were good enough!
This is visual eye candy. With any bread recipe I do a timeline to judge my start/sleep schedule. you've sped up my recipe research process greatly!!!
Is the salt measurement for table salt (~2tsp)? I am using Diamond Kosher, 11g would be 4 tsp.
Mary - it's 11g, regardless of the salt being used. That's the beauty of measuring by weight. 11g of Diamond kosher is 3-3/4 teaspoons by my conversion.
This may be a bad question, but about how many inches high should a loaf be? I’ve made this twice and I’m happy with the spring, but I’m curious if it should be higher.
Jonny - Depends on the shaping but mine are routinely 4 inches or so at the peak.
I am a new sourdough baker and have tried this recipe as well as Martin Philip's version of Maura's Sourdough. I am struggling to get a good oven spring with both recipes, and I think it might be that I am over fermenting during the bulk phase. (I am using a combo cooker and shaping well, as far as I can see. I also only proof in the fridge for 8-12 hours.) Can you clarify step six for me? When it says to "allow to proof until domed and about doubled in volume, 30m to 2h longer" does that mean that it should be doubled from that point, or from where the dough started when it was first mixed after autolyse? Because even leaving my dough in an 80 degree proofer for 2 hours in step six, I'm not anywhere near doubled. But I may be doubled from where the dough started initially. Can you clarify? Thank you!!
Penny - I mean doubled from where it started, as it is going to be expanding all along. Hope that helps!
Yes it does! Thanks so much :)
Just to confirm: In this recipe the dough goes directly from fridge to oven without allowing it to come to room temp? I've been baking mostly with the King Arthur no-knead sourdough recipe, which has a different process overall, and it comes out 3 hours before baking.
Robert — That's right. As long as a dough is sufficiently fermented prior to and during the cold-proof, there's no need for further proofing out of the fridge. Aside from the convenience of it, the dough is usually easier to get out of the basket and to score cleanly when it is cold. (Some say you also get better oven spring/ears too.)
I made the beginner formula and the results were so good! I appreciate that you have made it easy and enjoyable to make such a great loaf at home. I wasn't sure if this would be worth the extra work since the no-knead recipe works so well, but IT IS WORTH IT, both from getting your hands in the dough to feel the transformation process (not everyone appreciates that experience) to the final outcome. Compared to no-knead, the loaf had more spring, better crumb and terrific chew! I will still use the no-knead for convenience but thanks for giving us a way to take it up a notch when time allows.
Thanks for this, Andrew. My rustic loaves were getting worse and worse and worse over the years. So frustrating!
Yesterday I made this and it was much, much better!
I'm vexed because the differences between what yours and what I did seem very minor...I wouldn't think they would make a difference. But they did!
Two questions:
1) I don't like to mix by hand. Have you or anyone you heard of had success using a stand mixer to do the mixing before the folding? What worked?
2) Coil folds seem to be all the rage these days. I certainly don't mind doing them. But I can't see how they are materially different from old school stretch-and-folds...except that they seem to stretch both sides of the dough simultaneously. Thoughts?
Thanks, Allen
Allen - so happy to hear that. I know my recipes work for me, so it's always good to know they work for others. As for your questions:
1) you could easily do the mixing steps in a machine, just run it long enough to achieve the mixing, no need go longer than that.
2) I find them more thorough than bowl stretch-and-fold, the dough tightens up more quickly. And less messy than countertop S&Fs. But any form of folding should work, really.
3) (below) I cover my bannetons with shower caps, and they only cover the top and upper sides, and that seems sufficient. I think covering the entire thing should be fine too, though it might be the case sometimes that the minor amount of moisture wicking that happens when the bottom of the banneton is exposed could help prevent dough sticking. With the pulp bannetons I use, that's never an issue. OTOH, I don't think a loaf will pick up fridge smells all that quickly.
Shower cap! Great idea. I'll switch to that.
On a related note, on my list of things to try is tangzhong method for high-hydration rustic loaves like these. I know this method is most common for fluffy white breads. But I wonder if it might make a high-hydration lean dough much easier to handle.
Have you done this test already? Thanks.
Not specifically, but did you see the post I just put up yesterday? Because adding instant mashed potatoes and more water is essentially the same thing. And I like it!
For step 9, can the proofing basket be placed directly in the fridge...or is it best to cover the top...or entire outer surface to prevent excess moisture loss and/or migration of fridge smells to dough? I've been wrapping the entire basket in plastic wrap...but am not sure if that is necessary or good...
Is it possible to bake the bread after the 30 minutes resting period in the proofing basket?
Hi Andrew! I love this recipe and I have been making it regularly for over a year now. It's always great. I make it at the 75% hydration. Recently, I have been saving myself some time by just mixing together the water, starter and salt, then adding both flours at once, instead of letting the flours autolyse for an hour. It speeds up the process and makes it easier for me and there really has not been any noticeable difference. I guess I wanted to 1) share that with you as data/feedback and 2) ask if there is any risk or anything I should look out for when cutting that corner?
Thank you for this recipe and all of your great writing and recipe dev!
Ben - you might notice that the dough needs more folds to get to a similar place, structure-wise, and/or slightly less height in the finished loaf because of weaker structure. But I'm not surprised it works, you can often cut corners with breads and get a nice result!
I made this recipe for the first time at 80% hydration for a friendsgiving this past weekend, came out great. I feel like I didn't really "get" bread until I started making higher hydration recipes - I've made bread on and off since I was a kid but never really felt the transformation in lower hydrated, kneaded loaves I just kind of kneaded for 10 minutes, not really knowing what I accomplished. I've found your higher hydration recipes to be the best teaching tools for understanding gluten formation and bread making generally - the transformatiom from wet mess to loaf is just so dramatic. Thanks for another great recipe!
Agreed, Zach! inching up on hydration can do wonders for a loaf, and it's amazing how easy it is to work with wetter doughs once you get a feel for it. Glad you liked!
Hi Andrew! About to make my very first ever sourdough bread using this formula/recipe (beginner hydration with 35% as my kitchen is cold!!) and am confused on one point. My levain took a very long time to double yesterday (did the quick build version) and put it in the fridge last night before bed after it’d doubled (plus a bit more!) - now wondering if I can use it cold from the fridge or let it come to room temp during the 1h autolyse? Per your other posts, I thought I’d increase the water temp to get closer to 78 but since the flour and water sit for 1h before the levain comes into contact, should I not adjust the temperature? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
Aviva - You should let the levain come to room temperature at first if possible. As for the dough, you should always do your best to get the dough to end up 78-80F at the start of mixing, but if that doesn't happen, proofing it at that temperature should do the trick, since small amounts of dough are quick to equilibrate to the space they are in. Hope that helps!
Thank you for the amazingly fast answer! I didn’t know if spending the extra time out of the fridge after its 12 hour time in there would be bad for it! Very excited for my first loaf and thanks again!
Best of luck. I am currently revamping my approach to all of this stuff in my book, but right now I don't have time to share with everyone here.