Great information! I also haven't seen a difference in the outcome with various fat levels of cow's milk. Maybe a little in terms of fermentation speed, but not bread quality. I once compared unsweetened oat milk vs. 2% cow's milk in otherwise identical doughs, and the fermentation was a little faster with the oat -- maybe because it has less protein and fat. The breads were both great by not rushing the cow's milk dough. For plant-based I prefer soy milk and totally have the issue you described -- an allergy in the family that limits how much I bake with it.
This is very helpful for me and timely as well. I’m currently making a Shokupan loaf that uses coconut milk powder and plant butter. Works beautifully, but I do find that the milk powder has to be sifted.
I use soy milk in almost all my baking for protein reasons also, though sometimes cut with coconut for the extra fat. But I am just now getting into enriched breads and yeasted pastries, so I'm really excited you're applying your rigour to soy milk (and powder!) for this application.
Another great read and very informative, thanks, Andrew! We do use milk powder in our bakes cos we rarely have fresh milk on hand, but have never been quite sure how much to add. The 30:70 ratio is a useful guide, so we'll work with that. (We get goat's milk powder as I seem to tolerate that better than cow's milk.)
Not a question about milk, but what's the status of recipe testing for Breaducation? Is it just on hiatus while you work on the front matter and such, or have you moved away from crowd-sourced testing?
someday I'll need to do a deep dive into fermented dairy breads, I think they are a whole other thing. Probably not for the book (aside from a possible couple of yogurt containing ones)
Quality stuff, as always. I swear by sour cream in place of milk and butter in my 100% whole wheat pan loaf (AKA bread for toast). The acid really helps strengthen the gluten, leading to a light fluffy loaf even with 100% WW.
Old baking lore said that it was important to scald milk before using in breadmaking (or use special heat treated dry milk powder). Allegedly that helps the rise... Do you have opinions on that? Thanks!
Many websites repeat the idea that milk should be scalded to denature the casein (whey) proteins to improve rise. It's not clear what the mechanism is here, though the idea is that casein further limits gluten structure. But nowadays most milks are already ultra pasteurized (this is why I don't pre-scald my milk when making yogurt) and the whey proteins should already be denatured. Ditto for most nonfat dried milk, which is spray-dried at relatively high temperatures. Even if there was a small amount of extra rise from scalding milk, I don't feel like the extra effort would be worth it.
2 or 3 decades ago "Cook's Illustrated" did a test in a sidebar. (I can't find it in the online index.) They *claimed* there was a difference. I'm skeptical that I would notice.
I've seen that note, and it claimed *slight* differences, but ultimately also didn't think it was worth the extra effort. But also it was 20 years ago, and I do think that milk processing has changed significantly since then.
My current MO is to reach for techniques and formulas that work well/well enough without extraneous effort. I'm happy with the enriched breads I make with milk or NFMP and don't feel the need to push the volume any further. (That said, I do all sorts of things that *do* require extra effort, but because I can clearly see big benefits to doing so.)
Great information! I also haven't seen a difference in the outcome with various fat levels of cow's milk. Maybe a little in terms of fermentation speed, but not bread quality. I once compared unsweetened oat milk vs. 2% cow's milk in otherwise identical doughs, and the fermentation was a little faster with the oat -- maybe because it has less protein and fat. The breads were both great by not rushing the cow's milk dough. For plant-based I prefer soy milk and totally have the issue you described -- an allergy in the family that limits how much I bake with it.
This is very helpful for me and timely as well. I’m currently making a Shokupan loaf that uses coconut milk powder and plant butter. Works beautifully, but I do find that the milk powder has to be sifted.
I use soy milk in almost all my baking for protein reasons also, though sometimes cut with coconut for the extra fat. But I am just now getting into enriched breads and yeasted pastries, so I'm really excited you're applying your rigour to soy milk (and powder!) for this application.
I'm excited to work up my vegan shokupan soon, Julia!
Woo!!
I chuckle every time I read this title, Andrew. 🥖:)
I cannot resist a good bad pun, Jolene!
😂👏👏👏
Soy allergies are not as common as popular narratives would have one think. Certainly not as common as lactose intolerance 🤣
At least as many people on this planet eat soy every day as those that consume milk products! There would be a pill for it if it was as prevalent!
Tofaid
Another great read and very informative, thanks, Andrew! We do use milk powder in our bakes cos we rarely have fresh milk on hand, but have never been quite sure how much to add. The 30:70 ratio is a useful guide, so we'll work with that. (We get goat's milk powder as I seem to tolerate that better than cow's milk.)
Not a question about milk, but what's the status of recipe testing for Breaducation? Is it just on hiatus while you work on the front matter and such, or have you moved away from crowd-sourced testing?
nope, just gone back to the lab to get some things done on my end. I'll send out an update soon.
Excellent! I've really enjoyed the testing, so glad to hear it'll continue!
The way you explain very simply makes it most understandable, thank you!
thank you, Şemsa!
Cottage cheese-
I make the Tassajara dill cottage cheese bread and it is delicious.
someday I'll need to do a deep dive into fermented dairy breads, I think they are a whole other thing. Probably not for the book (aside from a possible couple of yogurt containing ones)
Quality stuff, as always. I swear by sour cream in place of milk and butter in my 100% whole wheat pan loaf (AKA bread for toast). The acid really helps strengthen the gluten, leading to a light fluffy loaf even with 100% WW.
Old baking lore said that it was important to scald milk before using in breadmaking (or use special heat treated dry milk powder). Allegedly that helps the rise... Do you have opinions on that? Thanks!
Many websites repeat the idea that milk should be scalded to denature the casein (whey) proteins to improve rise. It's not clear what the mechanism is here, though the idea is that casein further limits gluten structure. But nowadays most milks are already ultra pasteurized (this is why I don't pre-scald my milk when making yogurt) and the whey proteins should already be denatured. Ditto for most nonfat dried milk, which is spray-dried at relatively high temperatures. Even if there was a small amount of extra rise from scalding milk, I don't feel like the extra effort would be worth it.
2 or 3 decades ago "Cook's Illustrated" did a test in a sidebar. (I can't find it in the online index.) They *claimed* there was a difference. I'm skeptical that I would notice.
There's also high heat milk powder like this https://www.amazon.com/Bakers-High-Heat-Treated-Nonfat-ounces/dp/B007ZEO06O It claims that the high heat is to improve rise of bread doughs. I have wondered whether manufacturers would bother to make this product if it didn't work...
I've seen that note, and it claimed *slight* differences, but ultimately also didn't think it was worth the extra effort. But also it was 20 years ago, and I do think that milk processing has changed significantly since then.
My current MO is to reach for techniques and formulas that work well/well enough without extraneous effort. I'm happy with the enriched breads I make with milk or NFMP and don't feel the need to push the volume any further. (That said, I do all sorts of things that *do* require extra effort, but because I can clearly see big benefits to doing so.)