I feel I need to save this for future reference! I'm so looking forward to your book so I can finally get a good understanding of this particular world that bread is ❤️
Is bread ever measured as a function of density (mass/volume) as a surrogate marker of good fermentation? The ideal end range of density would be different for different types of bread, but just wondering if that is ever a variable or term used to describe the balance of air and dough for the ideal fermentation (ie aforementioned “open crumb”). When trying new recipes, usually I can tell if something is a bit amiss when a slice seems heavier than expected, and that goes along with the visual of less evenly open crumb as well. And vice versa, when a slice is light as air and ethereal, I feel like I’ve captured the maximal fermentation point successfully.
Not really. It would be hard to visualize easily, and folding and shaping degases the dough along the way, so the volume and degree of fermentation do not necessarily track. (Don't get me started on why using the "aliquot method" is a pointless exercise, for exactly this reason.)
When it comes to the dynamics of "nailing" fermentation appropriately for that light as air crumb, the crucial stage is in the final proof, where volume and the poke test are the metrics. The goal (if ambient proofing, that is) is as much volume as possible before the loaf collapses.
I thought I had heard of this being done at some large, commercial, continuous flow bakeries... But I'm not positive. You might check the material and forums over at https://bakerpedia.com/.
I deeply appreciate the essential work of editors — but I would love a director's cut of Breaducation based on this!! Thank you for sharing this gem, am *so* on board with dough rheology as an explainer
I hope none of this will be deleted from the final book. I now really understand elasticity and extensibility. I second several other readers about saving this. Thank you for the succinct explanation.
Is it really true that "Elasticity and extensibility are two ends of a single dough-flow spectrum"? One could make a dough out of corn flour that flowed quickly or slowly depending on the amount of water in it. But neither version would have any elasticity.
I'm no biologist. But Debbie Wink could tell you all about it.
Finally, you might want to also include a mention of how mixing and folds (and gas expansion) denature the proteins in the gluten (or at least that's what Peter Reinhart told me). As the proteins are unfolded more of their surfaces are exposed. This allows them to form weak attractions to the free water in the dough, thus making the dough feel more and more dry over the course of the bulk fermentation.
Allen - Obviously I am talking about (and only about) gluten-forming doughs here. Without gluten, elasticity and extensibility are not really in play.
I know all about the differing lag times between bacteria and yeasts and I talk about it (including quoting Debbie directly) elsewhere in the book. But by the time most sourdoughs are fully proofed, the discrepancy in lag times is irrelevant, all that matters is the *overall* rate.
As for the effect you mention, it's interesting, and seems plausible, but it is the sort of thing that I am wary of referencing without further data. (If you have any, let me know.)
There are numerous of "common wisdom" takes on what happens inside a dough that I have shied away from restating in the book, since I could not find corroborating (or non-contradictory) evidence. I've tried to highlight only those effects that are obvious in practice and explanations that have scientific consensus and/or clear evidence to back them up.
It's less "this is why things work" and more "this is what works," which is ultimately all that matters for bakers. Obviously, it would be impossible to avoid theorizing to some degree, since so much is invisible to the naked eye, but I have made an effort not to state ideas that I had any doubt or confusion about.
Super fine! I really mean it. This is an excellent overview of many of the key elements that a baker can use, hands-on, to become aware of the interrelated processes that go into creating a great loaf. I really appreciate this on-point discussion and am excited to see, in context, more of what you are writing! And, ultimately, your finished work. Thanks!!
As a home baker of many years, including yeasted bread and sourdough brand using different flours such as Spelt Flour, I've saved this post as there are so many light bulb moments for me.
I feel I need to save this for future reference! I'm so looking forward to your book so I can finally get a good understanding of this particular world that bread is ❤️
This is great information, Andrew. I’m saving this post. Many thanks!
Is bread ever measured as a function of density (mass/volume) as a surrogate marker of good fermentation? The ideal end range of density would be different for different types of bread, but just wondering if that is ever a variable or term used to describe the balance of air and dough for the ideal fermentation (ie aforementioned “open crumb”). When trying new recipes, usually I can tell if something is a bit amiss when a slice seems heavier than expected, and that goes along with the visual of less evenly open crumb as well. And vice versa, when a slice is light as air and ethereal, I feel like I’ve captured the maximal fermentation point successfully.
Liang -
Not really. It would be hard to visualize easily, and folding and shaping degases the dough along the way, so the volume and degree of fermentation do not necessarily track. (Don't get me started on why using the "aliquot method" is a pointless exercise, for exactly this reason.)
When it comes to the dynamics of "nailing" fermentation appropriately for that light as air crumb, the crucial stage is in the final proof, where volume and the poke test are the metrics. The goal (if ambient proofing, that is) is as much volume as possible before the loaf collapses.
I thought I had heard of this being done at some large, commercial, continuous flow bakeries... But I'm not positive. You might check the material and forums over at https://bakerpedia.com/.
I've never seen it at an artisan bakery.
Andrew! This is an excellent breakdown of the technical approach to dough development. I will share it with my co-workers... Cheers.
Jonathan! Music to my ears, I'm so glad you think so.
I deeply appreciate the essential work of editors — but I would love a director's cut of Breaducation based on this!! Thank you for sharing this gem, am *so* on board with dough rheology as an explainer
Best article ever!!
I hope none of this will be deleted from the final book. I now really understand elasticity and extensibility. I second several other readers about saving this. Thank you for the succinct explanation.
Andrew, I haven’t read anything remotely as helpful in my other bread books as the way you have organized this. And it’s really well written.
I wish my less-dough
Experienced self could have read this back in the day when I didn’t have a clue about bran absorption or influence of acidity, or the like,
and despaired of ever understanding what made my dough tick. 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
Three thoughts:
Is it really true that "Elasticity and extensibility are two ends of a single dough-flow spectrum"? One could make a dough out of corn flour that flowed quickly or slowly depending on the amount of water in it. But neither version would have any elasticity.
Next, a thing that affects fermentation rate in addition to the exponential nature is the bacterial growth phases, especially the initial lag. See, for example, https://image1.slideserve.com/1563981/phases-of-bacterial-growth-curve1-l.jpg
I'm no biologist. But Debbie Wink could tell you all about it.
Finally, you might want to also include a mention of how mixing and folds (and gas expansion) denature the proteins in the gluten (or at least that's what Peter Reinhart told me). As the proteins are unfolded more of their surfaces are exposed. This allows them to form weak attractions to the free water in the dough, thus making the dough feel more and more dry over the course of the bulk fermentation.
Allen
Allen - Obviously I am talking about (and only about) gluten-forming doughs here. Without gluten, elasticity and extensibility are not really in play.
I know all about the differing lag times between bacteria and yeasts and I talk about it (including quoting Debbie directly) elsewhere in the book. But by the time most sourdoughs are fully proofed, the discrepancy in lag times is irrelevant, all that matters is the *overall* rate.
As for the effect you mention, it's interesting, and seems plausible, but it is the sort of thing that I am wary of referencing without further data. (If you have any, let me know.)
There are numerous of "common wisdom" takes on what happens inside a dough that I have shied away from restating in the book, since I could not find corroborating (or non-contradictory) evidence. I've tried to highlight only those effects that are obvious in practice and explanations that have scientific consensus and/or clear evidence to back them up.
It's less "this is why things work" and more "this is what works," which is ultimately all that matters for bakers. Obviously, it would be impossible to avoid theorizing to some degree, since so much is invisible to the naked eye, but I have made an effort not to state ideas that I had any doubt or confusion about.
Super fine! I really mean it. This is an excellent overview of many of the key elements that a baker can use, hands-on, to become aware of the interrelated processes that go into creating a great loaf. I really appreciate this on-point discussion and am excited to see, in context, more of what you are writing! And, ultimately, your finished work. Thanks!!
This is excellent! Thankyou!
As a home baker of many years, including yeasted bread and sourdough brand using different flours such as Spelt Flour, I've saved this post as there are so many light bulb moments for me.