Hi! regarding footnote 16-proof temp--I have a proof setting on my oven which supposedly holds temp between 80-95 degrees. Seems too hot! Do you like proofers, or do you think better to take it more slowly? When not using this feature I have a 64-67 degree environment. I see in the recipe to increase or decrease Levain accordingly. Do you have a preference in terms of final product?
Too hot! Those 'oven proof' features are terrible. You are better off using a proofing box of some sort, like the one I have made from a seedling heating mat, which I wrote about somewhere though where I cannot find right now (I'll do a post on it specifically soon).
I usually use my cold oven with just the “oven light” on and I think there is some warmth from the bulb that keeps it a little higher than just room temp when it’s cold out. Tbh I haven’t measured the temp with that setup, but when I stick my hand in, it feels warmer than outside the oven. I’ve heard of using the oven or the microwave after “preheating” using a bowl of steamy water. You’d have to see if the temp would be more optimal range than the oven setting you are talking about.
This is what I use too, but beware that leaving that light on continuously for hours is a bad idea, especially if your oven door has a nice seal. Especially if you're proofing in a tightly lidded container. Yep, learned the hard way. I check the temp in there after an hour or so and then turn it off if it is warm enough.
This is so helpful! Thanks! In footnote 15, re: the folds. One other part that can be confusing is what involves a fold. Some recipes (not necessarily yours) seem to suggest that a fold involves 4 quarter turns of a bowl. Others call that 4 folds. So specifying that procedure clearly, then saying repeat x number of times over y hours would be much clearer.
What do you include as "pre-made ingredients" which modify hydration percentage? Obviously starter/levain should be counted, and in this recipe your rye scald, but what about the honey (~17% water) or eggs (~48% in yolk, ~88% in white) in other recipes?
Eggs, yes, but in enriched dough recipes you rarely speak of "hydration" without considering the eggs (or milk, cream, etc.) as contributing to it (we usually don't refer to hydration at all in those recipes because it is so nebulous.) As for honey, the % is small enough not to matter. Premade ingredients here means porridges, preferments, etc., things with significant amounts of water and that are used in large quantities.
Great idea Andrew and great way to get some feedback. My thoughts:
- The footnotes were a clever way to do it, but reading in the e-mail (versus on wordloaf) I had to constantly scroll around, and then confused the steps of the recipe with the footnote.
- Temperature. I guess there's "ideal" temperature, which would presumably come from lots of experimentation, or "the temperature I used" which would give some indication of what to expect. My guess is it's easier and more precise to use the latter in most instances. And maybe a stock sentence that says there could be large variations at low ambient temperatures (say 64, like in my house) and high, say 75. In my kitchen, in the winter, I use a proofing box made from an old cooler and a thermostatically controlled seedling map. In summer, I just expect faster action.
- Good idea to use the % sign each time in the bakers percents. I've been experimenting through Daniel Leader's "Living Bread" recently, and he skips the % sign (although he does use "g" for grams in the weight column. I keep getting confused between the two.
I'm looking forward to trying this, though trying to fathom when I might eat it. Breakfast? Seems too sweet. Dessert? Hmm. Naughty snack...maybe!
This seems like a relevant post to mention that I made a Sourdough Calculator web app, for fun. It's at https://sourdoughcalculator.shinyapps.io/calculator/ if anyone wants to check it out. It's free and there's no way for me to make money off of it or self-promote, in case that's a concern.
It works the way I like (of course), in that you set a total flour amount, hydration, and levain baker's percent and it calculates the adjusted flour and water weights. I believe that's also how you define your formulas, from the recipes I've looked at. It's otherwise fairly basic, and I might keep tinkering with it and add a few other features, but I'm not trying to replace some of the existing calculators.
If anyone is interested in sourdough calculators that let you save recipes, add more ingredients or different sections, I'd suggest looking at some others:
thank you- this adds another layer of information, and understanding.
a question i have wanted to ask--when&why is sourdough chosen as the leavening agent vs commercial yeast? and is there a way to read your recipes and switch one for
the other? (namely commercial yeast for starter)
i understand this might not be a thing, given how specific a process/result a recipe creates/describes, but wonder if its possible?
*with no disrespect
intended given the work it takes to create a recipe a certain way*
I am truly confused about one thing - in all of your recipes. I understand Baker's percentages. What I'm wondering is why all your measurements in recipes are to the gram and not rounded up. for example, your "Best Sourdough" recipe calls for 852g white flour +94g ww i(total 946g) instead of starting with 1000gms of flour. I've been following Tartine's recipe for some time because it is intuitive for me to use round numbers. I'm sure you have a logical explanation. I'd love to understand.
Rima - While I understand that rounding can make life easier, I prefer to give precise numbers that line up with the baker's percentages I provide (I usually, though not always round to the nearest multiple of 5). I think in the long run it makes one a better baker to have things be accurate. You can always round up or down if you want!
that's because I aim for a specific DOUGH WEIGHT and then work backwards from there to the ingredient amounts. I think it is more common for bakers to work that way than the opposite.
I am truly confused about one thing - in all of your recipes. I understand Baker's percentages. What I'm wondering is why all your measurements in recipes are to the gram and not rounded up. for example, your "Best Sourdough" recipe calls for 852g white flour +94g ww i(total 946g) instead of starting with 1000gms of flour. I've been following Tartine's recipe for some time because it is intuitive for me to use round numbers. I'm sure you have a logical explanation. I'd love to understand.
I think this is pretty clear. I would not have trouble following this formula, which I will, soon, because it sounds delicious!
I would suggest formatting that clearly separates the baker's percentage information from the formula ingredients and steps. A lot of newer bakers get confused by baker's percentages.
I think it's worthwhile reconsidering side-by-side baker's % and weight measure; it can help a newer baker get used to and learn the value of bakers %.
I can't wait to make this...so many of my favorite things (rye! cardamom! combo of chocolate and cherries!) combined in one loaf!
Hi! regarding footnote 16-proof temp--I have a proof setting on my oven which supposedly holds temp between 80-95 degrees. Seems too hot! Do you like proofers, or do you think better to take it more slowly? When not using this feature I have a 64-67 degree environment. I see in the recipe to increase or decrease Levain accordingly. Do you have a preference in terms of final product?
Too hot! Those 'oven proof' features are terrible. You are better off using a proofing box of some sort, like the one I have made from a seedling heating mat, which I wrote about somewhere though where I cannot find right now (I'll do a post on it specifically soon).
I read that! Ok. Standing down.
Mine works great for fermenting yogurt/skyr
I usually use my cold oven with just the “oven light” on and I think there is some warmth from the bulb that keeps it a little higher than just room temp when it’s cold out. Tbh I haven’t measured the temp with that setup, but when I stick my hand in, it feels warmer than outside the oven. I’ve heard of using the oven or the microwave after “preheating” using a bowl of steamy water. You’d have to see if the temp would be more optimal range than the oven setting you are talking about.
This is what I use too, but beware that leaving that light on continuously for hours is a bad idea, especially if your oven door has a nice seal. Especially if you're proofing in a tightly lidded container. Yep, learned the hard way. I check the temp in there after an hour or so and then turn it off if it is warm enough.
This is so helpful! Thanks! In footnote 15, re: the folds. One other part that can be confusing is what involves a fold. Some recipes (not necessarily yours) seem to suggest that a fold involves 4 quarter turns of a bowl. Others call that 4 folds. So specifying that procedure clearly, then saying repeat x number of times over y hours would be much clearer.
Also, bravo on updating the index! Not a fun job, but certainly a welcomed one.
What do you include as "pre-made ingredients" which modify hydration percentage? Obviously starter/levain should be counted, and in this recipe your rye scald, but what about the honey (~17% water) or eggs (~48% in yolk, ~88% in white) in other recipes?
Eggs, yes, but in enriched dough recipes you rarely speak of "hydration" without considering the eggs (or milk, cream, etc.) as contributing to it (we usually don't refer to hydration at all in those recipes because it is so nebulous.) As for honey, the % is small enough not to matter. Premade ingredients here means porridges, preferments, etc., things with significant amounts of water and that are used in large quantities.
Great idea Andrew and great way to get some feedback. My thoughts:
- The footnotes were a clever way to do it, but reading in the e-mail (versus on wordloaf) I had to constantly scroll around, and then confused the steps of the recipe with the footnote.
- Temperature. I guess there's "ideal" temperature, which would presumably come from lots of experimentation, or "the temperature I used" which would give some indication of what to expect. My guess is it's easier and more precise to use the latter in most instances. And maybe a stock sentence that says there could be large variations at low ambient temperatures (say 64, like in my house) and high, say 75. In my kitchen, in the winter, I use a proofing box made from an old cooler and a thermostatically controlled seedling map. In summer, I just expect faster action.
- Good idea to use the % sign each time in the bakers percents. I've been experimenting through Daniel Leader's "Living Bread" recently, and he skips the % sign (although he does use "g" for grams in the weight column. I keep getting confused between the two.
I'm looking forward to trying this, though trying to fathom when I might eat it. Breakfast? Seems too sweet. Dessert? Hmm. Naughty snack...maybe!
This seems like a relevant post to mention that I made a Sourdough Calculator web app, for fun. It's at https://sourdoughcalculator.shinyapps.io/calculator/ if anyone wants to check it out. It's free and there's no way for me to make money off of it or self-promote, in case that's a concern.
It works the way I like (of course), in that you set a total flour amount, hydration, and levain baker's percent and it calculates the adjusted flour and water weights. I believe that's also how you define your formulas, from the recipes I've looked at. It's otherwise fairly basic, and I might keep tinkering with it and add a few other features, but I'm not trying to replace some of the existing calculators.
If anyone is interested in sourdough calculators that let you save recipes, add more ingredients or different sections, I'd suggest looking at some others:
http://brdclc.com/ (saveable by bookmarking URL)
https://foodgeek.dk/en/bread-calculator/ (also has a DDT and other calculators, though I haven't tried them)
https://breadcalc.com/ (has quite a few saved recipes, though I haven't looked much through its features)
Oh, and my vote is that the footnotes are a clever way to add context without cluttering the recipe, though I'm partial to a footnote in general.
Wow! Thx, only been with the sourdough about 6 months. That'll come in handy to let me branch out a little more!
thank you- this adds another layer of information, and understanding.
a question i have wanted to ask--when&why is sourdough chosen as the leavening agent vs commercial yeast? and is there a way to read your recipes and switch one for
the other? (namely commercial yeast for starter)
i understand this might not be a thing, given how specific a process/result a recipe creates/describes, but wonder if its possible?
*with no disrespect
intended given the work it takes to create a recipe a certain way*
A wonderful primer on how to read, but also write, a recipe. Thank you.
I am truly confused about one thing - in all of your recipes. I understand Baker's percentages. What I'm wondering is why all your measurements in recipes are to the gram and not rounded up. for example, your "Best Sourdough" recipe calls for 852g white flour +94g ww i(total 946g) instead of starting with 1000gms of flour. I've been following Tartine's recipe for some time because it is intuitive for me to use round numbers. I'm sure you have a logical explanation. I'd love to understand.
Rima - While I understand that rounding can make life easier, I prefer to give precise numbers that line up with the baker's percentages I provide (I usually, though not always round to the nearest multiple of 5). I think in the long run it makes one a better baker to have things be accurate. You can always round up or down if you want!
Thanks Andrew. I get that. But how come you don't START with the base flour rounded. How do you arrive at the 852 number for example.
that's because I aim for a specific DOUGH WEIGHT and then work backwards from there to the ingredient amounts. I think it is more common for bakers to work that way than the opposite.
Thank you Andrew for the explanation. Now it makes sense to me.
I am truly confused about one thing - in all of your recipes. I understand Baker's percentages. What I'm wondering is why all your measurements in recipes are to the gram and not rounded up. for example, your "Best Sourdough" recipe calls for 852g white flour +94g ww i(total 946g) instead of starting with 1000gms of flour. I've been following Tartine's recipe for some time because it is intuitive for me to use round numbers. I'm sure you have a logical explanation. I'd love to understand.
Love the new footnotes. I'm confused about #17 though where you refer to #13. Should that be #14?
I have several thoughts on this but don't want to repeat... find it hard to read the comments on the phone so will get back to you on this one later
I think this is pretty clear. I would not have trouble following this formula, which I will, soon, because it sounds delicious!
I would suggest formatting that clearly separates the baker's percentage information from the formula ingredients and steps. A lot of newer bakers get confused by baker's percentages.
I think it's worthwhile reconsidering side-by-side baker's % and weight measure; it can help a newer baker get used to and learn the value of bakers %.