I assume step 5 for the Dough should be 2 dough balls, not 4. Any quantity on the sauce per pie…wasn’t sure if it’s intended to use all the sauce for (2) 14” pies.
Thanks, John! Is the sauce supposed to be pretty thick? The amount in Andrew's version (about 20 oz. total by volume) yielded about 13 ounces of sauce by weight for me after cooking. I might dilute it some, as it's very thick.
Yeah, it's pretty thick. haven't had a need to dilute, though letting the sauce warm a little closer to room temp before spreading it on makes it just a bit easier.
So just double the ingredients for the original recipe? I am a little unsure if my FP can handle the doubled amounts, though. Can't wait to try this new version!!
Got it. Mine is 14 cup so I think that is a good change too. One more clarification, looks like the sausage is going on raw, I usually precook a bit but that's for the Ooni.
Not a pizzaiolo by any means, but I can't help but question the hydration rate on this. I'm usually at 62% for a Neapolitan style in my Ooni; 70% when using my steel. This tavern style is quite a bit lower.
It is! And it's very different from a Neapolitan pizza in almost every way. Very thin, super crispy. This recipe is the result of just so dang many pizzas. I promise it'll work!
Seriously, loved the write up and am looking forward to trying this. And, for tourists, you can actually get amazing tavern style at Giordano's (at least the local ones, I don't know about the new ones popping up out of town). They call it Extra Thin Crust, and I like mine with their delicious Greek style meatballs and spinach. So, you can go one place and scratch the itch for obscene stuffed deep dish and actual good pizza.
Coincidently, @kenjilopezalt has been on a tavern pizza quest lately in the Chicago area and just posted photos from his recent visit to @nachosandlager and John Carruthers on Instagram. Kenji commented on how John is "incredibly generous with his method and testing experience which I always appreciate." Thank you, John, for sharing your pizza recipe with us too and especially your techniques. Am looking forward to trying it all out!
Hi Andrew- Im new here. I've been a chef for 30 years and so excited to try this approach to pizza! I have an Ooni and have had some issues, but like you, I haven't given up. I was wondering about sourdough for this recipe. Have you tried it? Cheeseboard Pizza in Berkeley, CA is my all time local fav crust. Also I was wondering if a PDF or more printer friendly version of the crust recipe exists? Thank you for this!
Mlisa - This isn't my recipe, so no, I don't have a sourdough version yet, sorry. As for a PDF, there's one already there, look for the box! Cheeseboard is wonderful, haven't been there in years.
Andrew - can you help me with the amounts of vital wheat gluten to add to KA AP or equivalent to get to a high gluten flour? I think the top end of the scale would be 1.5% or 5.4g-ish, correct? I was thinking about trying 5g of VWG initially. I think I also added a bit of diastatic malt when I've made the original recipe, but I may try it without. What do you think? Thanks!
Sorry if this is a dumb question. I cured my dough in the fridge uncovered on a parchment lined sheetpan. The uncovered side is nice and dry. Is this the bottom crust now? As in, do I flip it over, then top the side that was touching the parchment paper? Or doesn't it matter? Also, I ordered the Caruso's giardiniere you recommended. Very excited to make this pizza!
Alexandra - That's right! The point of curing the dough is to dry out the top, which then becomes the bottom crust once you flip and peel the parchment off. I just got some Caruso's myself, and now I can make it myself!
Update! Delicious pizza and so much fun to make. The curing technique is so cool (and counterintuitive as I'm always trying to "protect" my dough from drying out in the fridge) and really produces a super crisp crust, which is also incredibly easy to maneuver on the peel and transfer to the oven — no sticking! Loved the Caruso's giardiniera, which was so different, surprising, and so much tastier than anything I've purchased at my local stores — it's an oil-based dressing (brine?), and the seasonings and vegetables are delicious. All of the other giardiniera I've purchased is packed in the same vinegary brine used for things like pickled banana peppers or pickled jalapenos, etc., and I just haven't been too taken by any of them. I have never been to Chicago so I have nothing to compare this to, but from what I've seen on Instagram and in the photos in your post, I made a real Chicago-style pizza today. Thanks!
PDF still says 4 balls, I brainlessly went about halving the recipe to end up with 2 rather than 4, and realized it doesn’t add up. Just now I’m reading through the Substack and see it’s a typo. Ugh...
Ksenija - I'm very sorry about that. There is something wrong with the Substack PDF functionality, I actually *tried* to update as soon as I realized it, and assumed it was already corrected. I have now fixed it for good (I think 🤞).
Something is off with the recipe. The weight of all dough ingredients comes to 605g and dividing the dough into 4 balls means each ball is about 150g and not 295g as written. So are the quantities off? Are we supposed to divide into 2 balls of about 300g each or 4 balls of 150g each?
Very excited to try this fermentation process. Question: when you say "Remove the dough and form into a ball. Divide the dough into two equal balls roughly 295g each and form those into individual balls." Do you mean form the "two equal balls" into more than two balls? If so, how many? Thank you!
I assume step 5 for the Dough should be 2 dough balls, not 4. Any quantity on the sauce per pie…wasn’t sure if it’s intended to use all the sauce for (2) 14” pies.
I fixed the dough ball error, thanks for the heads up. As for the sauce, I think the answer is yes, half the batch per 14-inch pie.
Sorry - you want about 5-5.5 fl ounces per pie. The batch size is due to the fact that most good tomatoes come in 28-ounce cans.
Thanks, John! Is the sauce supposed to be pretty thick? The amount in Andrew's version (about 20 oz. total by volume) yielded about 13 ounces of sauce by weight for me after cooking. I might dilute it some, as it's very thick.
Yeah, it's pretty thick. haven't had a need to dilute, though letting the sauce warm a little closer to room temp before spreading it on makes it just a bit easier.
To confirm, the weight of each dough ball should be what?
"Remove the dough and form into a ball. Divide the dough into two equal balls roughly 295g each and form those into individual balls."
So just double the ingredients for the original recipe? I am a little unsure if my FP can handle the doubled amounts, though. Can't wait to try this new version!!
yes! And the FP was a big reason I halved it: John has a 16-cup model, and I think it would be too much dough for anything smaller than that.
Got it. Mine is 14 cup so I think that is a good change too. One more clarification, looks like the sausage is going on raw, I usually precook a bit but that's for the Ooni.
The bake time is plenty long enough here to cook the sausage through!
Not a pizzaiolo by any means, but I can't help but question the hydration rate on this. I'm usually at 62% for a Neapolitan style in my Ooni; 70% when using my steel. This tavern style is quite a bit lower.
It is! And it's very different from a Neapolitan pizza in almost every way. Very thin, super crispy. This recipe is the result of just so dang many pizzas. I promise it'll work!
You've forced my hand. Now I have to make more pizza. :-)
I'm dastardly like that
I am a Chicagoan and I approve this message.
Seriously, loved the write up and am looking forward to trying this. And, for tourists, you can actually get amazing tavern style at Giordano's (at least the local ones, I don't know about the new ones popping up out of town). They call it Extra Thin Crust, and I like mine with their delicious Greek style meatballs and spinach. So, you can go one place and scratch the itch for obscene stuffed deep dish and actual good pizza.
Coincidently, @kenjilopezalt has been on a tavern pizza quest lately in the Chicago area and just posted photos from his recent visit to @nachosandlager and John Carruthers on Instagram. Kenji commented on how John is "incredibly generous with his method and testing experience which I always appreciate." Thank you, John, for sharing your pizza recipe with us too and especially your techniques. Am looking forward to trying it all out!
Between Kenji yesterday and getting to hop on Wordloaf today, it's been a hell of a 24 hours.
Thank you for your wisdom. Gonna give this a try! Marie’s was one of our places growing up and I miss it dearly.
Very excited about this, thanks John and Andrew for sharing it with all of us!
Is it possible to use active dry yeast instead of instant for the dough?
I'm sure it will be fine! if you want to be precise, use 2.5g, which is ~1/2 teaspoon plus 1/8 teaspoon
Are there any plans to do another printing of the first Pizza for Everyone? I'd love to find a copy.
There are! It's just gonna be a couple of weeks.
Thanks for this!
I'm not sure if I missed but is the dough cold fermented?
Yes! I need to update the recipe, will do later today. Put the containers into the fridge, and remove them 2-3h before rolling out the dough.
Hi Andrew- Im new here. I've been a chef for 30 years and so excited to try this approach to pizza! I have an Ooni and have had some issues, but like you, I haven't given up. I was wondering about sourdough for this recipe. Have you tried it? Cheeseboard Pizza in Berkeley, CA is my all time local fav crust. Also I was wondering if a PDF or more printer friendly version of the crust recipe exists? Thank you for this!
Mlisa - This isn't my recipe, so no, I don't have a sourdough version yet, sorry. As for a PDF, there's one already there, look for the box! Cheeseboard is wonderful, haven't been there in years.
Thank you!
Andrew - can you help me with the amounts of vital wheat gluten to add to KA AP or equivalent to get to a high gluten flour? I think the top end of the scale would be 1.5% or 5.4g-ish, correct? I was thinking about trying 5g of VWG initially. I think I also added a bit of diastatic malt when I've made the original recipe, but I may try it without. What do you think? Thanks!
NVM - I just found the formula in your pocket guide!
was going to remind you of it!
Sorry if this is a dumb question. I cured my dough in the fridge uncovered on a parchment lined sheetpan. The uncovered side is nice and dry. Is this the bottom crust now? As in, do I flip it over, then top the side that was touching the parchment paper? Or doesn't it matter? Also, I ordered the Caruso's giardiniere you recommended. Very excited to make this pizza!
Alexandra - That's right! The point of curing the dough is to dry out the top, which then becomes the bottom crust once you flip and peel the parchment off. I just got some Caruso's myself, and now I can make it myself!
Awesome! Thanks so much for the swift reply. Loved reading this whole post as well as your latest Detroit Style Pizza post.
Thank you! It really means a lot to me that you appreciate what I (and my great contributors) are doing here.
Update! Delicious pizza and so much fun to make. The curing technique is so cool (and counterintuitive as I'm always trying to "protect" my dough from drying out in the fridge) and really produces a super crisp crust, which is also incredibly easy to maneuver on the peel and transfer to the oven — no sticking! Loved the Caruso's giardiniera, which was so different, surprising, and so much tastier than anything I've purchased at my local stores — it's an oil-based dressing (brine?), and the seasonings and vegetables are delicious. All of the other giardiniera I've purchased is packed in the same vinegary brine used for things like pickled banana peppers or pickled jalapenos, etc., and I just haven't been too taken by any of them. I have never been to Chicago so I have nothing to compare this to, but from what I've seen on Instagram and in the photos in your post, I made a real Chicago-style pizza today. Thanks!
PDF still says 4 balls, I brainlessly went about halving the recipe to end up with 2 rather than 4, and realized it doesn’t add up. Just now I’m reading through the Substack and see it’s a typo. Ugh...
Ksenija - I'm very sorry about that. There is something wrong with the Substack PDF functionality, I actually *tried* to update as soon as I realized it, and assumed it was already corrected. I have now fixed it for good (I think 🤞).
How much does the dough proof up? Should it be doubling in size when it’s in my refrigerator or staying same size?
Something is off with the recipe. The weight of all dough ingredients comes to 605g and dividing the dough into 4 balls means each ball is about 150g and not 295g as written. So are the quantities off? Are we supposed to divide into 2 balls of about 300g each or 4 balls of 150g each?
There was an error, and recipe has been corrected. It's two balls of 295g.
Any tips or tricks for making this recipe in a kitchen aid mixer?
Very excited to try this fermentation process. Question: when you say "Remove the dough and form into a ball. Divide the dough into two equal balls roughly 295g each and form those into individual balls." Do you mean form the "two equal balls" into more than two balls? If so, how many? Thank you!
No, it's two balls total. That probably should read "Divide the dough into two equal pieces"