that would work like my SD Home, yes. But you'll still want to proof it at room temp once a day to have the best result. Storing it for long stretches at 54F will cause it to overproof, since it will remain active.
I think it might be helpful to address a few different audiences on maintaining a starter. Your approach in today’s post assumes a weekly bake of something. Some audience members might be monthly bakers (or even fewer times than that, holding my hand up high. Like maybe every few months). I’ve successfully maintained a starter I began when you first posted about tiny starter on CI. So over 3 years now. Using a bunch of your tips, and lots of additional reading, and being a bit of a neglectful starter mom, I’ve put together a strategy that can work for the occasional sourdough baker. And I think those people should be considered as well. Because it is possible to be a successful occasional sourdough baker, and knowing that might be helpful to someone who bakes less frequently, but would like to be part of the sourdough community.
Nancy - I think I've addressed all of the other ways to maintain a starter here many times before (maybe too many times, actually). I'll be condensing and refining all of this in my book and people won't need to comb through the archives to find it.
Even if you don't bake with your starter once a week, I think it's best to *refresh* it once a week either way. Think of it as a spectrum: feeding once a month or so (the longest interval I'd ever recommend) on one end, and feeding twice a day, every day at the other. Anything between the two is going to be better than the former, and the closer to the latter you get, the better the starter will perform.
Andrew, you’re definitely the pro on this. I’m not questioning that. What I tried to say, and obviously I did it inelegantly or understandably, is that it’s possible to be pretty negligent, and still have a starter that does/can arise from near dead. I wasn’t trying to challenge your expertise. So yes, optimum is your spectrum: “feeding once a month or so on one end, and feeding twice a day, every day at the other.” That said, and maybe I’m the only person in the universe who can’t manage, for whatever reason, even once a month. That’s the message I was trying to get out in case there’s even one other person who can’t manage, for whatever reason, once a month. That there’s still away to do this (bake sourdough). Even if one can’t manage even monthly feeding. It’s definitely some work to get a neglected starter up to speed, but it can be done. That’s all the message I intended. So I’m sorry if I offended.
Not at all, Nancy! I only meant that I cannot make a single post serve everyone. This one was meant only to explain one possible approach. You could feed your starter every day for a week using this method whenever you do get back to it, and it will be better off for it, even if it goes back into the fridge afterwards!
The SDH is the cheapest home money can buy and my starter, "Perky" thrives in the new environment for about a month now. All phases of dough development and rise are improved with a more viable starter. I refresh every three days at a temperature of 50 degrees F using a 5:5:1 ratio for refreshment, and ramp it up to 72 degrees F when baking is planned the next day.
If you have the SD home, there are all sorts of ways you can do it! I do every day because I use it every day, but that sounds like a perfectly viable alternative.
Maintaining a balanced, robust starter has been the key to better bread for me. Although I never stored my starter in the fridge, and fed it once a day for four years, the ratio of water to flour were not right for the single daily feeding. I switched to twice a day feedings a couple of months ago, at a ratio of 1:5:5. It's almost always 72-73 degrees in my kitchen. What a difference this has made - the starter is reliable and strong. It's usually ready for mixing in when I need it. Definitely think there is more yeast bacteria. It is less acidic which I kind of miss, but that can be manipulated a bit with fermentation. My loaves are never gummy at all now, they are taller and have "shoulders." Much more consistent bakes.
I'd love to have a Starter Home (my preferred name ;) ) but need a bigger kitchen.
Jeanette - You can adjust water temperature, but also if your kitchen is on the cold side, that's even better—it will take longer for the starter to peak, and thus longer for it to weaken before you get to it the next day.
For rye I do equal parts whole rye flour and water, so 20/20/3g.
Elizabeth - Sorry, I have no idea! Desem is mostly a mystery to me, I don't know what makes it superior to/different than other forms of sourdough, and have no experience with it!
Andrew, I wonder if feeding the starter with 95% AP and 5% fresh milled organic rye would help the starter to acclimate to room temperature more quickly than the one month that you observed. I'm thinking that it will because the added nutrients of the rye should restore the starter to health more quickly, and having the flour be organic may mean that there are some beneficial natural organisms on the rye berries. What do you think? I'm going to try it out with my SDH. I'll report back.
Mark - I think those would help too, but I suspect RT fermentation is going to make a much more significant improvement to a starter's health than organic or more nutritious flour. It wouldn't hurt though!
If I travel about once a month, how does this work? Put it in the fridge before I’m gone for a few days? Just stick with storing it in the fridge all the time? Dehydrate it?
Steve - Anything in between room temp all the time and fridge all the time is still going to be better than fridge all the time. So feel free to switch between the two modes whenever you want.
wondering I would this reconcile with the fact that we all do the second leavening in the fridge. Wouldn't it be consistent to have the second leavening done at room temperature?
Not sure what you mean by "second leavening". Do you mean the final proof, which can be done in the fridge?
If so, then no. There's no discrepancy here. A starter held at room temperature will do a better job of leavening, whether or not you retard the loaf. Retarding at fridge temps is actually not ideal for the same reasons, which is why bakers with retarder-proofers often set it to 55F or so, which is on the low end of the ideal temperature range for sourdough fermentations.
The point of continuous starter maintenance is to keep the *starter* above 55F at all times, which improves its activity. What happens with a dough is secondary to this process and obviously has no effect on the starter it was made from.
I retard many of my breads, but only out of convenience, not because it is "better" (it isn't). Bakeries do it because it allows space between shaping and baking, and the ability to stagger bakes from a single batch. A room temperature final proof will generally give you better oven spring; choosing to retard or not is a compromise between convenience and results.
Sorry, yes, i meant "retarding". So you will suggest to bake on the same day, whenever possible. Many will tell that retarding in the fridge will help with flavors when using sourdough starter. OT...I'm getting lots of difficulties subscribing to the annual fee...is there any technical issue with the website? My bank said he gets transaction denied from the website not from them or the card issuer.
I think same day bakes are better, yes! Chilling the exterior of the loaf can help with cleaner scoring, so one approach I like is to proof the loaf until ~75% expanded, then move it to the fridge while the oven/pot heats up.
As far as I know there is nothing wrong with Substack signups, sorry you are having trouble with it. Maybe wait a day or so or try another card. It's not something that is in my control, it is a Substack problem.
Mine is pretty accurate. When I did the testing for Serious Eats, I kept a remote probe in it for a few weeks, and it was steady the whole time. I did find it went off if the vents were blocked, so I make sure to leave a lot of space around the back and sides.
Actually, the Home is keyed to Celsius, so a 2˚F discrepancy is to be expected. I think it is in the manual, but I mention that here too: https://www.seriouseats.com/brod-and-taylor-sourdough-home-review-7563208 While you can just set it a little higher, 2˚F isn't really enough to matter much, IME.
i would love to start this...and use your measurements...do you discard starter each day too...or keep building for a week? thanks.
yes, definitely! each refreshment uses only 2-3g of the previous one, the rest is discard.
thank you!
I have a wine refrigerator which is at a constant 54 degrees. What do you think about keeping the starter in there?
that would work like my SD Home, yes. But you'll still want to proof it at room temp once a day to have the best result. Storing it for long stretches at 54F will cause it to overproof, since it will remain active.
I think it might be helpful to address a few different audiences on maintaining a starter. Your approach in today’s post assumes a weekly bake of something. Some audience members might be monthly bakers (or even fewer times than that, holding my hand up high. Like maybe every few months). I’ve successfully maintained a starter I began when you first posted about tiny starter on CI. So over 3 years now. Using a bunch of your tips, and lots of additional reading, and being a bit of a neglectful starter mom, I’ve put together a strategy that can work for the occasional sourdough baker. And I think those people should be considered as well. Because it is possible to be a successful occasional sourdough baker, and knowing that might be helpful to someone who bakes less frequently, but would like to be part of the sourdough community.
Nancy - I think I've addressed all of the other ways to maintain a starter here many times before (maybe too many times, actually). I'll be condensing and refining all of this in my book and people won't need to comb through the archives to find it.
Even if you don't bake with your starter once a week, I think it's best to *refresh* it once a week either way. Think of it as a spectrum: feeding once a month or so (the longest interval I'd ever recommend) on one end, and feeding twice a day, every day at the other. Anything between the two is going to be better than the former, and the closer to the latter you get, the better the starter will perform.
Andrew, you’re definitely the pro on this. I’m not questioning that. What I tried to say, and obviously I did it inelegantly or understandably, is that it’s possible to be pretty negligent, and still have a starter that does/can arise from near dead. I wasn’t trying to challenge your expertise. So yes, optimum is your spectrum: “feeding once a month or so on one end, and feeding twice a day, every day at the other.” That said, and maybe I’m the only person in the universe who can’t manage, for whatever reason, even once a month. That’s the message I was trying to get out in case there’s even one other person who can’t manage, for whatever reason, once a month. That there’s still away to do this (bake sourdough). Even if one can’t manage even monthly feeding. It’s definitely some work to get a neglected starter up to speed, but it can be done. That’s all the message I intended. So I’m sorry if I offended.
Not at all, Nancy! I only meant that I cannot make a single post serve everyone. This one was meant only to explain one possible approach. You could feed your starter every day for a week using this method whenever you do get back to it, and it will be better off for it, even if it goes back into the fridge afterwards!
Happy to hear it could survive being tended to once s week!
The SDH is the cheapest home money can buy and my starter, "Perky" thrives in the new environment for about a month now. All phases of dough development and rise are improved with a more viable starter. I refresh every three days at a temperature of 50 degrees F using a 5:5:1 ratio for refreshment, and ramp it up to 72 degrees F when baking is planned the next day.
If you have the SD home, there are all sorts of ways you can do it! I do every day because I use it every day, but that sounds like a perfectly viable alternative.
Maintaining a balanced, robust starter has been the key to better bread for me. Although I never stored my starter in the fridge, and fed it once a day for four years, the ratio of water to flour were not right for the single daily feeding. I switched to twice a day feedings a couple of months ago, at a ratio of 1:5:5. It's almost always 72-73 degrees in my kitchen. What a difference this has made - the starter is reliable and strong. It's usually ready for mixing in when I need it. Definitely think there is more yeast bacteria. It is less acidic which I kind of miss, but that can be manipulated a bit with fermentation. My loaves are never gummy at all now, they are taller and have "shoulders." Much more consistent bakes.
I'd love to have a Starter Home (my preferred name ;) ) but need a bigger kitchen.
I have a B&T proofer but I have 2 questions
1-can you adjust the water temperature, used to feed the starter, to compensate for the different temperatures in your kitchen (not using proofer)?
2-what ratio do you feed your rye starter? I hear it reacts differently than with white flours.
BTW, I always feed with organic flours
Thanks Andrew
Jeanette - You can adjust water temperature, but also if your kitchen is on the cold side, that's even better—it will take longer for the starter to peak, and thus longer for it to weaken before you get to it the next day.
For rye I do equal parts whole rye flour and water, so 20/20/3g.
I feed my rye 10/16/20, like Jeff Hamelman, but I don’t think it doubles. My kitchen is 73 mostly, and it smells like ripe apples. What do you think
Hi Andrew, I like this idea very much. I also keep a desem starter in the fridge, what ratio would you suggest to keep it out/feed it daily ?
Elizabeth - Sorry, I have no idea! Desem is mostly a mystery to me, I don't know what makes it superior to/different than other forms of sourdough, and have no experience with it!
Hi Andrew, I’ve been using desem since attending one of Tara’s workshops. Fun stuff! I’ll play around and see what happens. :0)
Andrew, I wonder if feeding the starter with 95% AP and 5% fresh milled organic rye would help the starter to acclimate to room temperature more quickly than the one month that you observed. I'm thinking that it will because the added nutrients of the rye should restore the starter to health more quickly, and having the flour be organic may mean that there are some beneficial natural organisms on the rye berries. What do you think? I'm going to try it out with my SDH. I'll report back.
Mark - I think those would help too, but I suspect RT fermentation is going to make a much more significant improvement to a starter's health than organic or more nutritious flour. It wouldn't hurt though!
If I travel about once a month, how does this work? Put it in the fridge before I’m gone for a few days? Just stick with storing it in the fridge all the time? Dehydrate it?
Steve - Anything in between room temp all the time and fridge all the time is still going to be better than fridge all the time. So feel free to switch between the two modes whenever you want.
wondering I would this reconcile with the fact that we all do the second leavening in the fridge. Wouldn't it be consistent to have the second leavening done at room temperature?
Not sure what you mean by "second leavening". Do you mean the final proof, which can be done in the fridge?
If so, then no. There's no discrepancy here. A starter held at room temperature will do a better job of leavening, whether or not you retard the loaf. Retarding at fridge temps is actually not ideal for the same reasons, which is why bakers with retarder-proofers often set it to 55F or so, which is on the low end of the ideal temperature range for sourdough fermentations.
The point of continuous starter maintenance is to keep the *starter* above 55F at all times, which improves its activity. What happens with a dough is secondary to this process and obviously has no effect on the starter it was made from.
I retard many of my breads, but only out of convenience, not because it is "better" (it isn't). Bakeries do it because it allows space between shaping and baking, and the ability to stagger bakes from a single batch. A room temperature final proof will generally give you better oven spring; choosing to retard or not is a compromise between convenience and results.
Sorry, yes, i meant "retarding". So you will suggest to bake on the same day, whenever possible. Many will tell that retarding in the fridge will help with flavors when using sourdough starter. OT...I'm getting lots of difficulties subscribing to the annual fee...is there any technical issue with the website? My bank said he gets transaction denied from the website not from them or the card issuer.
I think same day bakes are better, yes! Chilling the exterior of the loaf can help with cleaner scoring, so one approach I like is to proof the loaf until ~75% expanded, then move it to the fridge while the oven/pot heats up.
As far as I know there is nothing wrong with Substack signups, sorry you are having trouble with it. Maybe wait a day or so or try another card. It's not something that is in my control, it is a Substack problem.
Are your Sourdough Home temps the set temp or the actual temp inside? I find mine varies from the set point enough to make a difference.
Mine is pretty accurate. When I did the testing for Serious Eats, I kept a remote probe in it for a few weeks, and it was steady the whole time. I did find it went off if the vents were blocked, so I make sure to leave a lot of space around the back and sides.
Thanks! I find mine is very consistent, but it's consistently 2°F below the set point.
Actually, the Home is keyed to Celsius, so a 2˚F discrepancy is to be expected. I think it is in the manual, but I mention that here too: https://www.seriouseats.com/brod-and-taylor-sourdough-home-review-7563208 While you can just set it a little higher, 2˚F isn't really enough to matter much, IME.
Sweet! Thanks for the information!